LA Angels Weekend News Crash: Half Way Home

84 games down, 78 to go. While the media and casual fans call the All Star Break the half way point, mathematically we’ve already passed it.

Midseason reports are coming out. FanGraphs looks at the most consistent and least consistent hitters in the league. Mike Trout makes one of those lists.

They’ve also updated their ZIPS projections for the American League and the Angels sit at a whopping 5.6% chance of getting a Wild Card.

So you’re telling me there’s a chance?

Voting for the Midsummer Classic wrapped up yesterday and early reports have Mike Trout starting with Ohtani neck and neck with Yordan Alvarez at DH.

The game might feature Albert Pujols due to a “legends” clause in the new CBA.

There are 19 games remaining until the trade deadline. Will the Angels be buyers or sellers? You know where I stand. Sell, baby, sell!

The team will be without Michael Lorenzen in the run up to the deadline as he’s on the IL with a shoulder strain. Really, I’d prefer to extend him.

The Angels might have a massive trade chip in reigning AL MVP Shohei Ohtani. Trading him would hurt, how much might it help?

There are plenty of outlets gearing up for the trade deadline. Here’s SI’s primer on all you need to know heading to the deadline.

The trade market is a fluid thing. The Dodgers probably needed an outfielder at the beginning of the week. Now that Chris Taylor has a fractured foot, that need is greater. I think there’s a deal to be made.

Count the Dodgers among the many suitors for Andrew Benintindi. A quick Google search shows nearly every team in on him.

Once the Benintindi shoe drops, teams will look elsewhere. Arizona is open to trading from its outfield depth.

Around baseball, MLB’s anti trust exemption is already under fire from Congress. Now a group wants Congress to issue a “Minor League Curt Flood Act” that would end MLB’s anti trust exemption’s domain over the minor leagues.

I’m sure Congress looking into a bunch of billionaires right when their campaigns need midterm election money is just a coincidence.

What has me smiling today?

The World Baseball Classic returns in 2023. Play will genuinely be spread around the world and Team USA will play at Chase Field March 11th-15th. Spring Training plus the Classic? You know where I’ll be.

Enjoy your weekend. Enjoy baseball. Enjoy the site. Just remember we are a community here and we do have rules.

116 Comments
Newest
Oldest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Fansince1971
Legend
8 months ago

Okay now I have a question for the site.

How much additional revenue in ticket sales, merchandise, media attention, social media followers etc do you think Ohtani generates for Arte per game.

Is it $1 million?
$2 million?
$3 million?

Now take that number and multiply it by the appropriately 240 games that Ohtani has left as an Angel if he doesn’t sign an extension.

Even at $1m per game, Ohtani is a $240 million asset for the next season and a half for which Arte will pay approximately $22 million during that period.

This is why Ohtani won’t be traded. Arte is going to collect the revenue as long as it is coming in and then say sayonara to the player who probably made him $1billion-plus at a total cost outlay of approximately $30 million. That’s over 30-1 in returns. You let that horse run as long as possible.

In essence, Ohtani and the overall value he has generated has made Trout’s entire contract and Rendon’s free for the franchise.

Last edited 8 months ago by Fansince1971
ihearhowie3.0
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

If Shohei leaves its not gonna be because someone else will offer him an extra few million. He’ll want to just be with a better run franchise. Could actually see him taking less.

Commander_Nate
Member
Trusted Member
8 months ago

Trout needs to participate in the WBC next year. Help Team USA defend the title then come back to start the season with some playoff mojo to spread.

Fansince1971
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  Commander_Nate

Okay so take a body that is starting to wear down and add more games to it for the sake of…..the WBC? Mmmm not buying it.

Commander_Nate
Member
Trusted Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Lol, eight or so more games is a “threat” to the health of a superstar in his prime. Might as well keep him out of spring training too then. Better yet, DH him only if we somehow make the playoffs again in his career.

Only thing not being bought around here is logic. That losing streak really seems to have changed some of you on this website.

angelslogic
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Commander_Nate

Trout needs to participate in the Home Run Derby. Maybe his timing will IMPROVE. It can’t get any worse.

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  angelslogic

Hitting a bunch of batting practice “fastballs” is not going to improve his timing, lol.

angelslogic
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Well, that was kind of my point. Desperation time.

DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  angelslogic

he said no way tonight after the game.

Commander_Nate
Member
Trusted Member
8 months ago
Reply to  angelslogic

I mean, I’d be down seeing Trout do some more cool shit while he’s still in his prime. That’s kind of the point of watching him, no?

DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  Commander_Nate

Then he will need more rest.

WallyChuckChili
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  DowningDude

So Trout and Ohtani are our best pitching coaches.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

Dear geniuses, I have a question….

OK. I keep hearing the baseball media dickheads gagging out “deep thoughts” on why the Angels should trade Ohtani. Hell, I even heard one tool set advocating for a team to trade for Trout and Ohtani. And I bet some of the tools here in our local shed will serve up the idea of packaging Rendon with Ohtani…. so that we can receive very little back in trade.

My question, if any of you want to play like you are MSM baseball experts, is WoTF can actually afford to trade for Ohtani and then pay him what he’s asking for the next 10 years? On top of that, can anyone out there pay Ohtani that PLUS Trout/Rendon?

And no, “If herr girdd dee blurd owner is really cereal bart winner dis than he blow up payroll for seven seasons and pay 300M and git error done!” is not an answer.

How many teams can actually afford Ohtani unless they can talk us into taking on their bloated stars?

If we get a sense of that list, we have a clearer sense of how certain Ohtani really leaving becomes.

For example. The Doyers already have a huge payroll. They have Freeman, Taylor and Betts on the books, they have Urias and Buehler in Arb3 and looking for extensions, they have 29M in Muncy/Turner decisions to make…. and Cody Bellinger is making 17M now and headed to arb4, they need to sign Trea Turner to a long deal (he’ll get David Prices money) and they need to sign Kershaw if he says he wants to stay. Oh and Will Smith, Tony Gonsolin, can’t miss starter prospect Brusdar Gratoral and Edwin Rios are Arb1.

And they will have Bauer trying to get his money from them.

So, the Doyers are the most “Honey Badger” team out there when it comes to buying a WS… but does it look as simple as “If we let Andrew Freidman trade for Ohtani he’ll totally jump at the chance to do it!”

Who do you think has as good or a better path to Ohtani and how/why?

DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago

tl;dr

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
8 months ago

I could see the Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, Dodgers, Phillies and Mariners making the dollars available to make a run at Ohtani.

The Angels biggest obstacle is that Ohtani already knows what he gets from this franchise. If what he has received thus far is what he wants going forward, then he’ll re-sign.

Last edited 8 months ago by Senator_John_Blutarsky
gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

The only team on that list I see as able to afford Ohtani without getting rid of some contracts is the Red Sox. Are the Yankees gonna pass on Judge… or carry him, Stanton, Cole and Ohtani on the same Payroll? Mets? Maybe if Cohen is down for a 400M payroll.

Mariners? A 10/450 contract?

2GA2Join
Trusted Member
8 months ago

I agree with you on Rendon/Ohtani package. That makes me gag. Like a supersized Wil Wilson / Cozart salary dump. Complete waste of a trade.

Good points. However, I do think it is possible that if the Dodgers can get their hands on Ohtani, they might do whatever it takes, regardless of all the hurdles you described.

h27kim
Trusted Member
8 months ago
Reply to  2GA2Join

Honestly, if we are serious about going for medium to long term success, we’d better be ready to take on bad contracts to get good talent, not trade away top talent to move bad contracts.

Fansince1971
Legend
8 months ago

Your question basically is the same as whether Arte will increase payroll to sign Ohtani (if Ohtani wants to stay). Will teams with already high payrolls stretch to sign Ohtani?

What team would trade a bunch of reasonably priced, controllable stars and talent to sign Ohtani and increase their payroll by at least $49 mil per season.

I think there are several teams that would do that to put Ohtani on a winner and increase the chances of winning a WS. Yankees for sure. Mets – likely – and it was Eppler who convinced Ohtani to come to the Angels. And I think even the Dodgers would dig deep to have Ohtani on their roster and gain the benefit of all those Japanese fans. Can you imagine Ohtani playing in a WS? It would be an absolute avalanche of cash.

Will Arte pony up and raise the budget?

Will Ohtani stay even if Arte does agree to another $400m deal?

Those questions are preliminary to the decision as to whether to trade Ohtani.

Last edited 8 months ago by Fansince1971
gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Fansince1971

Yah. Teams can do it. Any of the big market teams probably can. LA, New York, The Cubs, Philly, Boston

But they all face the same issue we will…. “Well half 90M tied up ern tree playersss!”

Unless a team wants to basically live long term above the payroll tax line and exist in terror of signing any other free agents to an expensive dud it’s gonna take some smoothing to pull this off

Other than the current Mets and Dodgers all of even the BIG teams have tried to duck the payroll line for a season of late. Chaim Bloom and Andrew Freidman are supposed to be super smart… so is signing Ohtani to a long term deal smart to them?

All I’m saying is, when I look at it, I’m not so sure there are going to be a bunch of teams trying to get Ohtani… it may be more like 3.

Fansince1971
Legend
8 months ago

True. In the sane way that only a few teams would have been in on Trout and his $400+ million contract. Only a few teams would commit so much money to one player.

And if you don’t think you can sign him long term, do you give away a bunch of young talented cost controlled players for him?

Ohtani could reasonably help put any contender over the hump for the next 2 seasons and compete for a WS title. But what would a team give up for that not knowing they can sign him long term. 3 top prospects and a starter might be the max.

jefeRey14x
Member
8 months ago

I think the big problem with signing Ohtani is the whole rearrangement of the pitching staff and lineup to work around the logistics of his inclusion… six man rotation, DH etc. Teams have long term plans, long term budgets, and they might not be easily amenable to the huge shuffle that brings.

And then there’s Arte’s probably unwillingness to let go of his newfound soCal Japanese market and international Japanese press.

Perry might have a mandate to sign him at all costs.

Charles Sutton
Editor
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  jefeRey14x

Great. No relief for the middle infield unless David Fletcher gets good again. Rengifo is Rengifo and Velasquez is Velasquez.

Wade and Mayfield just passed through waivers unclaimed.

jefeRey14x
Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Charles Sutton

Sigh, yeah. We really need the all-pitcher draft class to materialize as the cheap starting AND relief we need to offset the big three. Hey, how is that Maitan kid doing?

ihearhowie3.0
Super Member
8 months ago

The Giants could probably do it

MikeSalmon
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Twebur

So Wade is sorta like a dormant virus, like herpes: it’s still there, only not being expressed at this moment. Wade/herpes can always flare up (on your junk or lip, at 2nd base) at any time.
#Analogies

Twebur
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  MikeSalmon

Could be confused with Monkey Pox…don’t touch him.


Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Twebur

No one wants our garbage…..

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
8 months ago

Bring Arte here to CTPG and allow all of us one question. Mine, “I believe you need to fix the Front Office and fix Player Development, Scouting, Coaching and Training the same way throughout the system and raise the self-imposed Salary Cap by 40 million dollars a year to become the winners the fans crave. Are you willing to gamble that type of investment to take a chance to see attendance increase by another 7 or 8 million fans per year because the team becomes perennial winners?”.

Arte; “What is the question again, 50, 60 million dollars a year? What kind of winner’s? Gamble, no I don’t do that, What are you asking again?”

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

“Sure, Will you shoot yourself in the face if I don’t get seven to eight million extra fans in attendance each year?”

  • Moreno Malvado…. the evil is real
  • comment image
Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
8 months ago

There will be no touching of the hair or face

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/fcc8431d-00a2-45a2-8849-07690aec5348

Last edited 8 months ago by Senator_John_Blutarsky
Cowboy26
Legend
8 months ago

Of course

Marcotor
Trusted Member
8 months ago

How in the world do you stuff eight million more people every year into Angel stadium? And while we all love the Angels, just because they are winning doesn’t equate a huge bandwagon, altho there certainly is one.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Marcotor

This would be why Moreno Malvado took that bargain….so, so evil.

He will also probably snap GPB’s elbow tendons and force him to take illegal drugs too…. the… the darkness….

h27kim
Trusted Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

We have a few right players, but we need at least 20-30 more (including on 40 men roster). and we ain’t getting that…. I think the sheer number of right players needed is why FO work in baseball is harder than most other sports….

Cowboy26
Legend
8 months ago

The Curse of the GOAT is real. But I doubt Can we exercise it by just trading him away.

https://twitter.com/downonthefarm12/status/1545190041160257536

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Thanks for sharing this Cowboy. This is important info indeed. Since the big story lately has been “sell, sell, sell” or “Sell Mortimer, Sell !” what is being overlooked is that trading is not the only way to acquire talent. It is in fact the least efficient way.

Drafting players and developing them within your system has always been and is still the best way to improve your Major League talent and roster. And guess what? That involves have knowledgeable baseball people in the positions of evaluation and decision making.

THIS is the area the Angels need to seriously improve in. I also would place ALOT of emphasis on development. We are terrible at that. Why do our young players seem to go elsewhere and flourish, while young players from other orgs come here and either start sucking or such worse than they did before?? Hmmm. Let me think about that…

DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Big story clearly is sell sell sell. lol

Cowboy26
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Agreed but how do you explain the Skanks and Gigantes success? They are at the lower end of player WAR development as we are but have still produced multiple winning seasons. Are they just much more shrewder at winning trades FA signings and rehabilitation projects as we are ?

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Well, I think with the Yankees the answer is clear: to a great extent they buy their success. I mean, Gerrit Cole will fix alot of Major League rotations !

Now, the Giants on the other hand, that would be more of a mystery. It really surprises me that they are that low…

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Yep. This came up a few weeks ago… players go to the Giants and rediscover their youth or find their potential. Pederson (although he was not in a trade) this year is a good example. Right now, if it holds up he will have a career high in SLG.

Last edited 8 months ago by JackFrost
James
Trusted Member
8 months ago

You could maybe free Trout to one of hated teams like the yankers or doyers and bring back a boatload of prospects and a decent pitcher? Pitch to Ohtani that this team is his to lead going forward? Yeah Ohtani probably wants out regardless 🤷‍♂️ But you just don’t know. Until the roster is addressed and they get at least 5 or 6 quality hitters that aren’t Mendoza line level and K machines, then they are going to continue to look inept.
Or you hope Fletcher comes back strong and Rendon does the same next year and they actually upgrade the roster in the off season? Of course Ohtani will most likely be gone.

Last edited 8 months ago by James
DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago

Cell, Cell, Cell!

MITOCHONDRIA!

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago

Okay, here comes a little bit of rant.

Every year in recent Angels history ?(about this time, sometimes earlier and sometimes later) we start to hear the blind, angry cries of “sell, sell sell.” Sometimes the tired meme of “Sell Mortimer, Sell !” is used and we see two elderly entitled white men panicking as the stock market crashes…

This is the typical atomosphere around CTPG or HH over the last near decade as the fanbase comes to the realization that their beloved team will yet again miss the playoffs.
So, in short, this season is no different.

The problem with this reaction is that it is short-sighted and based upon emotion, especially anger and disappointment. This disappointment, and the anger are both understandable. This franchise has underachieved in a major way for close to a decade, having one season, 2009, (where they reached the American League Championship Series and lost to the Yankees) where they could fairly be said to have reached or even outperformed expectations based upon the talent on the roster and the payroll. In short, almost the entire managerial career of one Mike Scioscia was marked by under-achievement and disappointment. And yes, before you think about objecting to that statement, winning the AL West filled with far inferior teams and then fizzling out in the first round of the playoffs when you have Guerrero, Salmon, Anderson, Glaus, K-Rod, Erstad, Molina, Eckstein on your team IS a major disappointment.

So, the Angels have let us down ALOT over the last 18 or 19 seasons at least. In 2005 we did win a playoffs series vs New York, so that year could at least be viewed as a decent performance. So, other than 2009 and 2005 all the rest of our seasons since 2002 have been disappointments. That is 20 years of disappointment folks !

The idea of trading players around midseason it a typical reaction of fans when their team falls out of the playoff race. My argument against this reaction is that it is primarily based on emotion. Fans are coming from a place of disappointment and thus, they understandably want to see change. The problem is that change for changes sake is not a good strategy. We all know the metaphor of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titantic as it is going down. I actually think that is an apt metaphor for what most baseball fans are doing in their minds in July when they cry “sell, sell everything.” In way they are doing something worse than that, because they are often ready and willing to sacrifice any chance at victory in the near future just to see change. That want to see new players on the roster. They are so angry and fed up that they just want to see something, anything change.

I get it. I get upset with the team too. I get tired of the same thing, year after year. But calling to trade all of your best players does not actually address underlying issues. The point of any trade is to make your team better. Sometimes the proposed trade has an eye on the future, and sometimes the goal is to improve immediately. The problem with most MLB trades that send proven MLB players out for prospects is that those trades typically favor the team that gets the proven player. This is the reality of trading — the team that gets the best player in the trade almost always WINS the trade.

This is the just the nature of trades in Pro Sports. If we look at the most recent trade of a top star in MLB, Mookie Betts, we see that the Dodgers gave up Alex Verdugo, Jeter Downs and Connor Wong! This was highway robbery! Not only did the Dodgers clearly win this trade, they absolutely CRUSHED the Red Sox. This was again evidence that the team getting the best player in a trade almost always wins the trade. Yes, Verdugo’s career is not over yet, but the Dodgers have already won one World Series in large part due to the addition of Betts and he is again this season put up All-Star borderline MVP numbers.

In another sport does anybody remember who the Bucks got back from the Lakers when they traded Kareem ?

It is just very difficult to get fair value in the trade of a superstar, or even an All-Star caliber player. The Red Sox did not have to trade Betts. It was a choice they made based mostly on money.

I do understand that the Ohtani situation is different. My post here is not addressing Shohei Ohtani (I will write a separate comment on him) because I do understand that trading him may become necessary next season. One of those cases where a trade is indicated are situations where a soon to be Free Agent star has shared his intention to “test the market” or hinted or even outright stated his intention to leave. In those cases the organization who holds that player and contract clearly does not want the player in question to simply walk away and they are left empty handed. Those situations DO call for teams to explore and execute trades if for no other reason than to cut their losses. Though we are not quite at that point with Ohtani, I do suspect that the writing is already on the wall, and that given another poor showing in the First Half of 2023 we WILL be confronted with the reality of needing to trade Shohei. But we are not there yet. SO, here I am not talking about Shohei.

What I am arguing against is the reflexive cry to “sell,” and by that it usually means “giving” away your best young players for what amounts to pennies on the dollar. All of the people crying to trade Ward, trade Walsh and trade any of our good young players are reacting primarily out of disappointment and frustration. First, when they do this they rarely if ever say WHO they would ask for or want in exchange for said talent. Second, if they ever do suggest who they would get in return, it is almost always unproven talent at the AAA or AA levels. This is simply not a wise strategy. Because it is so hard to predict what players will succeed and excel at the Major League level, trading proven talent like Taylor Ward for unproven players (even for two or three such unprovens) is not a wise proposition. Look at all the highly touted young “stars” who have fizzled or just flat out “busted” recently. Here is a partial list of Number One overall picks from the MLB Draft, all of which could rightly be called “busts ” and all in the last ten years : Case Mize, Royce Lewis, Brady Aiken, and Mark Appel. More recently the Phillies took Mickey Moniak and his career is still very young. Going back a bit other highly touted young players such as Jurickson Profar have fallen far short of projections. This is what you get when you rely on projections for “unproven” players.

Going back further you have alot of Ben Sheets populating the landscape of failed “stud” prospects. In short, a bird in the hand is still worth two (or even more) in the bush.

So, I not only do NOT think it wise to even entertain the idea of trading Taylor Ward, I am not sure what the goal would even be. Every trade should have a specific purpose. If your team has an excess of strong bats and a lack of SP’s, by all means trade a bat for an arm or two… But IF you want to do that the arm you get back should be proven. My rule is proven mid-tier player for proven mid-tier, proven star for proven star etc. What you get should be what you give. Unfortunately this is not how most fans think. In anger they simply want to jettison their current talent, usually for what amounts to nothing at all. This is not only short-sighted but stupid. What I really would like to do is shake these people and wake them up from their drunken stupor born from years of disappointment and frustration.

Next season will be here before you know it. While there is no guarantee it will be better than 2022 there is no reason we should be cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

Taylor Ward is a keeper. So step away from that ledge and put that knife back in the kitchen cupboard.

Last edited 8 months ago by JackFrost
gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  JackFrost

Or we could just, like, change something because the Titanic had like chairs and and fan is short for fanatic and I’m just sick of all the bullshit and like drama.

comment image

James
Trusted Member
8 months ago

Not enough lifeboats I hear… 🚢

DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago

Still hurling zingers, I see. lolz!

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

We’ve been hanging onto pieces and parts for 6 years and it’s proven nothing. Having the MVP or the two best players on the planet means zero if the team continually finishes out of the playoffs.

Which would we prefer: being the Tampa Bay Rays and year in and year out strongly competing for the playoffs, or the Angels playing sub-500 ball yearly but having “Babe Ruth” and “Mickey Mantle” on roster?

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

I don’t disagree about Thor.

Again, he and Lorezen fall into the category of FA players you could lose and get nothing in return. I think with each of them you would have to make an assessment of what they would likely be asking and then decide if you would like to keep them, AND if you can meet their price.

I would not mind keeping Thor, but I probably would not want to meet the price he will be asking. I think that trying to keep Ohtani and saving resources for other players down the road (one of which would be Ward; I don’t think this is a mirage. And think he has found something and I do expect several very good years will follow. He is our guy and he should have those years with US) would be higher priorites.

I was a fan of keeping Lorenzen earlier this year, but I am ambivalent now.

My main problem with the “sell, sell” people is that is typically a thoughtless comment based on an immediate desire for change of some sort. The players are not always the problem. Sometimes it is the manager, sometimes the pitching coach, and sometimes a new hitting coach can make a big difference, like when Chili Davis went to the A’s a few years back and chagned their whole offensive approach at the plate.

I think that our offensive talent is really not that bad, (the bottom third of course being the exception) in fact up until almost the end of May we were leading all of MLB in several offensive categories, including HR’s, SLG, OPS and a couple of others. I personally think the fixes that need to be made are more about management, coaching and scouting etc.. The pitch tipping fiasco with Elvis was very revealing in that regard.

I just think that most people tend to ask to little when trading very good players, and also that prospects are over-valued. I think I made that point pretty well up above. If you are addressing a very specific need with a trade and trading out of an area of surplus, then yeah it can be good. But trading a key player and creating a big hole while filling another hole is not good strategy. Creating one new hole while filling another falls into the “rearranging the deck chairs” category.

But again, I have nothing against trying to get something back for a FA player who you have no plans of signing long term.

Last edited 8 months ago by JackFrost
2GA2Join
Trusted Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

You’ve explained well my thinking about trading Ward. So “what he said”.

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

I hope Jessica is paying you by the word….. 😀

Sportshawk
Newbie
8 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Lakers gave up Elmore Smith, Brian Winters, David Myers and Junior Bridgeman. Winters as I recall made an all star game or two. The others were serviceable players. And no, I did not look it up.

Also, I agree that trading players for the sake of change is not a good idea. Trading players who are performing adequately, or even well when they have more than one year remaining on their contracts deprives the team of the depth they sorely need. Trading away a player who will be a free agent and expensive to resign should most definitely be explored to see if the return would be worth it.

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Sportshawk

re: Kareem.

Yeah, Winters was a “decent’ NBA player, I’d say. As was Junior Bridgeman. But you gave away who was at that time an NBA MVP and Champion (he had also been the greatest high school and college basketball player ever!) and one who eventually became perhaps the greatest NBA player ever…

So please…is there any question who won that trade? And by a massive slam dunk I might add !

Last edited 8 months ago by JackFrost
DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Herschel Walker trade. Vikings got the better player.

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  DowningDude

Good point. That one is perhaps the exception that proves the rule.

I know all about that since I am a life long Cowboys fan. The one thing I would say about that is that Hershel was never the same player in the NFL that he was in college.. So in a sense the Cowboys were not trading a true superstar. Walker was never as good as say La Dainian Tomlinson or other truly great NFL RB’s. He was more name and less production.

Dallas really hoodwinked Minnesota on that one…

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Yeah, but except for Champ Bailey and Arrington all the other picks/players were a bunch of stiffs. Had the Redskins done a better job of drafting they could have really taken advantage of that , but they did not.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  DowningDude

Annnnddd… there it is, the one trade anyone can recall off the top of their heads where it worked out really really really well for the trading team

DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago

 🤓  I’m perty freakin schmart.

2GA2Join
Trusted Member
8 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Also, I saw somewhere recently a comment that typically you get more trading big stars during the offseason than at a trade deadline. I have no idea if that is true or not. I wonder if there is already a study done on that.
Obviously we’d want to maximize any trade we make.

FungoAle
Super Member
8 months ago

Trade Syndergaard NOW

ihearhowie3.0
Super Member
8 months ago

Hear me out: Buy and sell. If anyone has a guy with term on his deal that makes us better next year, get them now. Then replenish part of the cost by selling other pieces.

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  ihearhowie3.0

The key phrase here is “that makes us better next year (.) ”

If a trade does not make you better you should not do it. You don’t make trades because the fans are bored or just to do them. You make trades to get better. Period. And you usually do not get better trading star players for prospects. The team that gets the best player in a trade almost always wins the trade.

Also, I would add that the Angels should not be making trades that look to maybe make us better four or five years down the road. We need to get better NOW. You say next year, which is okay, but I say right now and next year.

I have a long comment/post coming up on this topic because it is a pet peeve of mine.

Last edited 8 months ago by JackFrost
GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
8 months ago

Shohei or Trouty anything other than an Angel is just unimaginable. I would miss either one so much that I would choose to watch Gilligan reruns before tuning in to this sad sack team.

rosstrade
Trusted Member
8 months ago

I like Gilligan’s Island, too.

DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  rosstrade

Manfred would try to change it from a 3-hour tour to a 2.5-hour tour.

Twebur
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  DowningDude

I hear Skipper and Mary Ann had a thing…she was a cubby chaser.

Cowboy26
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  Twebur

Mary Ann was hot.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
8 months ago

Albert in the 2022 All Star Game is a Sham. Only would Manfred come up with this Idea. I have no respect for Albert, none whatsoever. In the All-Star game as a “Legend”, LMAO, partly because this is a scam and sham, and partly with tears of sorrow that once again MLB lead by Manfred and the Baseball Writers of America are hurting the Game. Albert Pujols is a fraud, a phony baloney, and still fans think he was different than Mac and Bonds and Sosa. Go figure.

MarineLayer
Super Member
8 months ago

I haven’t watched the All Star game for years with the addition of inter league play and silly exhibitions like the HR contest. Adding old men like Pujols is just another reason. Give his bench spot to someone who deserves it based on actual performance.

Angels2020Champs
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  MarineLayer

Here’s an out there idea…. Maybe let the MVP from each league in the Futures Game be the final add-on spot??

The hypocrisy in MLB is hilarious, ‘let the kids play’ marketing campaigns followed by absolutely no follow up with team controlled years of service BS (vladdy jr ex) or incentives to give the next generation a shot at rubbing elbows the games best.

max
Trusted Member
max
8 months ago
Reply to  MarineLayer

It’s not a spot that he’s taking. It’s an extra spot for ‘legends’

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  max

Fine, take the extra spot and give it to the futures MVP.

Marcotor
Trusted Member
8 months ago

Sham-Pujols, in 4 “herbal” editions, endorsed by CJ Wilson. Coming to stores this fall!

Brent
Super Member
8 months ago

Trade Ohtani while you they can… No chance he re-signs

Brent
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Brent

Also, 11 years ago today some guy named Mike Trout made his MLB debut.

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Brent

Good times. It’s nice to look back and appreciate his talent given the inevitable regression in his skills and results has begun….

MarineLayer
Super Member
8 months ago

I agree. He’s still excellent but you can see the skills decline, understanding slumps are normal, even for a GOAT. I’m still happy to see him in our uniform.

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Brent

As much as I agree with a “real” rebuilding effort, I’ve come to accept it’s never going to happen.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
8 months ago

A “real rebuilding effort” would include what exactly? Trading 90% of what is currently here for minor leaguers. How many of the fan base would want to see the 1970’s again? At this point if rebuilding was an option, we’d be asking the same discission makers we currently have to rebuild. The same people who brought us Rendon and Joe “Give everybody a lot of rest, instead of winning” Maddon. In for a penny, in for a pound, we need to add rather than subtract if we want to win.

Baseball Gods be kind to me, but the Angels are really a very dysfunctional organization run by a man who is clueless. I won’t rehash his record at this time, but that old saying of Sh*t or get off the pot certainly comes to mind. No rebuilding here, only full speed ahead will do.

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
8 months ago

Good question. I believe a total rebuilding effort could look differently for each of us. For me a total rebuilding would selling our rentals that have value and acquiring assets for the farm. I’ve also shared in other threads that the minute Ohtani becomes a rental, we look to trade him immediately.

The reality remains that if the Arte / PTP model will be to have a Trout or Ohtani on roster consuming 20% of the budget, then it’s imperative to a prospect pipeline to provide low cost talent.

What’s killing us now is that we have to dumpster dive to fill out the starting nine verses having the farm system fill those gaps with skilled players.

h27kim
Trusted Member
8 months ago

What’s really killing us is that we are dumpster diving blindly, going after people who seem to have high upside (ie hard throwers, per Eppler remark from a few years ago). I think dumpster diving is a great idea if you can make good use of what you get (see Dodgers), but that takes scouting, coaching, and player development, stuff that we are (apparently still) neglecting.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  h27kim

Are we still neglecting scouting, coaching and PD? Source?

I don’t think we’ll know that for a little bit. Even good systems take a couple years to turn out their fastest rising prospects. If we see bupkiss by 2024 I’ll be more inclined to think all those hires PTP made were pig lipstick.

I also actually think teams like the Rays and Dodgers ability to turn trash into viable pieces…. who then become trash when they move on to other teams,,,, is partially due to some form of cheating (they beat the odds way way too much) but MOSTLY the fact that their farm is strong. The same methods they use to develop really solid players probably come in handy when evaluating Max Muncy and seeing how you can tweek him into value.

Again, if our farm has been upgraded starting in 2021, then as some of our farm kids develop the FO should be able to also see some guys being dropped off 40 man rosters, etc who can be molded in the next couple years.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

Exactly. Just imagine of Jeremiah Jackson was ready, got on the roster, and hit for a .700 OPS with good defense at short this year. Just that addition from the farm would make a big difference.

Conversely, imagine the forest of weeping rage boners that we’d see on here if, in addition to our current problems, Taylor Ward wasn’t doing such a good job in RF….

BUILD THE FARM! Honest to gah, I would trade Ohtani in a second if it meant we magically gained the ability to have a great farm system.

h27kim
Trusted Member
8 months ago

Again, speaking to the choir: I don’t trust the idea of trading Ohtani b/c I don’t think we have the infrastructure to make it work and it’s a iffy prospect anyways.

WRT Dodgers, Rays, etc. Maybe it’s cheating. All I want to see is Angels turning interesting but flawed players into productive contributors if only, in many cases, limited roles: we used to be pretty good at that–that’s how we got people like Weber, Donnelly, Eckstein, Wooten etc. in early 00’s, for instance. But we haven’t gotten (many) players like that in a good long while now.

JackFrost
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

The other point here h27 is the issue of having an “Ace.” What is the one thing above all else since Weave’s last really good season that 90% of us have been begging for?

That is that we need to get our Ace. Now, it appears we have him ! Ohtani has become a true “Ace.” We all know how hard it is to find those guys. There are only a handful of them out there.

So, seeing that we have him, we need to do everything we can to keep him. It is just not likely you will be able to replace Ohtani the ace starting pitcher. It is much more likely you’ll be able to find/add 30+ HR’s and a good SLG from the DH slot.

We have our Ace and we need to do everything in our power to keep him. The reason teams rarely trade Aces is because they know how hard they are to find.

Last edited 8 months ago by JackFrost
2GA2Join
Trusted Member
8 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

The problem with that logic is that we are all operating under the assumption that we cannot afford this ace.
And by not afford, that either means that Arte won’t give him the contract he wants, or that Arte will give him the contract he wants but then expect 22 of our other players to have a $2MM AAV contract.

If Arte will crank up the budget to $240MM, then by all means I think Perry should give Ohtani a blank check.

h27kim
Trusted Member
8 months ago

The presumption behind a lot of trade ideas (notable exception being Jeff Joiner’s excellent post) is the blind hope that we’ll get “something valuable in the future” if we trade everyone good. I don’t think that’s a given without good scouting, player development, and coherent medium to long term strategy. I fear that if we tear down now, we’ll wind up with a bunch of busts. I can see the logic, but I’m not at all confident that the current team leadership can make it work.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  h27kim

Future value. Nope, probably not. What feels like 100 years ago I even listed some “big trades” from a few years back and what the teams return ended up being. It’s generally very meh.

We may luck out and get some solid players. We will not get even close to equal value for players like Trout and Ohtani. We will be lucky to get half the value.

What we would get is a hard salary reset.

h27kim
Trusted Member
8 months ago

Well, that is the point: most trades flop, even the big trades involving seemingly can’t miss prospects and/or young up and comers. The real question is what will the top brass do after the trades and, as you put it, the hard (prospective) salary reset. From what we’ve seen, the danger is that the money saved would go to another flashy FA of dubious potential value and, frankly, that would suck.

Cowboy26
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

So what was the biggest star for prospects trade the Angels have made? Jim Abbott?

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-12-07-sp-1335-story.html

Not sure that was that good of trade for us. I remember listening to the Rams game on KMPC when the trade was announced. I think PXP was done by Bob Starr while Jack Snow was doing the color for the Rams at the time. When Bob Starr announced the trade on the air Jack Snow asked out loud? Is that all the Angels got? I thought that was pretty shocking considering that his son was the centerpiece of the trade.

MarineLayer
Super Member
8 months ago

The team of Arturo and Minasian have neither the will nor the skill for that. Hey, I made a rhyme.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

I don’t think we need a “really real rebuild”. The team makes a lot more money than most of the teams that do tear downs to the studs. We couldn’t do a rebuild before because we didn’t really have anyone to trade in a fire sale other than young Trout. But now? Yeah, we could trade Ward, Walsh, Thor, Sandoval, Fletcher if he comes back strong, Stassi, Raisel and some pen arms, even Rengifo’s got a little value plus Ohtani.

We could actually shave our payroll down to Trout & Rendon + some scrubs, get at least some prospects in trade, and then spend three years seeing what the farm can grow, we’d still have a ton of money to throw at places of concern when the time comes.

We couldn’t do that back in 2012, say. We can now. I’m not sure i want that, but at least it’s a feasible plan, unlike in the early 2010s.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
8 months ago

With the trading of everyone, might as well trade Trout to the Mets, Phillies, or Yankees and do a complete rebuild with the same inept guys in place currently. It really is, all or nothing really then, right?

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Brent

There is plenty of time to trade Ohtani if he wants or feels the need to move on. I just would not do it now. It wouldn’t be prudent to off a guy that brings in large amounts of income. Sure, prospects would be nice, but they would never be the equal of Shohei. No, I would not hold on to Shohei to the end just to watch him walk, but I’m holding out hope that Arte sees he needs to spend more on this team the way it is currently built, and we become winners. At this point as much as it pains me, Shohei is more valuable than Trout, and we would never get a fair return for Shohei? Cut your nose off to spite your face is just what we would be doing. We have no chance of succeeding in the playoffs even if we made them. So right now, trading Shohei for me is out of the question.

Fansince1971
Legend
8 months ago

The argument is his trade value will never be higher than right now. Cost controlled for another 1.5 years and playing great. If he is to be traded for a haul in return, emotion has to be put aside and you gotta strike when leverage is highest.

steelgolf
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Problem is, that is thinking like a GM who has complete control to field a winning team. Arte will care more about the marketing value of Ohtani, including the international media hype he brings. So what name do you bring in on a trade to help offset that hype and marketing opportunity , in order to get Arte on board?

Fansince1971
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  steelgolf

You don’t..Cannot be done. Ohtani is unique. That is why a trade would fill multiple holes with quality players that might not otherwise be filled.

But your point is well taken. Arte and his marketing focus may just agree to pay Ohtani $40 million per year to stay. But he may still leave Anaheim for a winner.

And if he doesn’t leave, the Angels will have three $40m players with no viable farm system. At that point, if the budget remains around §190m, good luck fielding a team that has anything other than Trout and Ohtani and a perennially injured Rendon.

So, that is why I keep coming back to trading Ohtani. But your point is well taken.

steelgolf
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Maybe a Judge type plus a good mlb pitcher and some others maybe? With Judge being the marketing hype for Arte?

DowningDude
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  steelgolf

Ohtani couldn’t get Judge to budge.

MarineLayer
Super Member
8 months ago

I think the idea is to trade every asset except Trout and Ohtani. I understand that Ohtani is a major part of billboard salesman Arturo’s business model. Given the current product isn’t viable anyway, I don’t see how it hurts attendance or revenue. Of course, the problem is no one in the organization has any idea how to maximize our assets.

Fansince1971
Legend
8 months ago
Reply to  MarineLayer

So three $40m players?

And a total budget of $190m?

Last edited 8 months ago by Fansince1971
MarineLayer
Super Member
8 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Hey, it’s not my plan.

admkir
Trusted Member
8 months ago

I think that you hold off on trading Ohtani, If you can’t re-sign him in the off-season then trade him at next years trade deadline

2GA2Join
Trusted Member
8 months ago
Reply to  admkir

I think we trade Ohtani now, or during the offseason. Don’t wait until a year from now so that he just becomes a 2 month rental and we get minimum value.
I don’t think a full rebuild will necessarily have to make us go through years of dark ages. Yes, if we traded everyone (Ohtani, Trout, etc) we would suck for probably 2023 at least (but we suck right now anyway). But we would have:
1. Perry’s pitching prospects coming up, and some of them can be traded for what we need,
2. The huge haul from Ohtani and Trout and Ward etc,
3. The budget would have dropped so much, that now we would have tons of room with $180MM and not be so top heavy.
So we could possibly get back to being good pretty fast. We’ve seen it before with a few teams that really sucked, and they suddenly got good.

I don’t at all deny that player development, scouting, etc. will affect our outcomes… so if we completely fail at that then, yes, we’re hosed.

Last edited 8 months ago by 2GA2Join