Baseball games should not be played in the morning. I know, I know, time zones and so on, but waking up at 9 am to watch baseball is not ideal. The fact that many of us have, or will, (stupid Big 10 move) for college football is bad enough, but for baseball? Why?
Luckily for Angels fans, the Angels suck, so, the smart ones just slept in, knowing they weren’t missing anything.
And you would be right. Not only because Jose Suarez went only 3 and 2/3 innings, giving up 4 runs on 4 hits, striking out only 1 and waling 2. But because Elvis Peguero relived him of all options and gave up another 4 runs in only 2/3 of an inning.
Yes, 4 runs by one bullpen arm, and not even with any dignity but with wild pitches and not covering home MULTIPLE TIMES. If I wasn’t writing this I would have turned it off and went back to sleep.
Ironically, the offense actually scored 5 runs today. Not that it mattered.
Oh, and it was all on Peacock. You know, NBC’s new streaming service? Yeah. Again, cooperate greed ruining everything.
Angels get swept in Baltimore and now are 11 games under .500.
I can’t help but wonder why we didn’t make a run at Robinson Cano. The Braves got him for cash considerations, and he would’ve been virtually no risk for us. he hit 333/375/479 in his brief AAA stint w/ SD.
We didn’t make a run at him? How do you know?
We didn’t have a $1.00
We can stop the myth that the brawl was good for the Angels. Seattle 8 game winning streak plus 3 games over .500. Second year in a row they have a chance at the playoffs whereas the Angels have to decide if 70 wins is a successful year 🤔Bradley out for the year because he couldn’t stick the landing and Duffy injured because of the sunflower seeds 🤦🏼♂️ No one needs to throw at Trout because he can’t hit the high inside heat anymore. Not signing one of the available SS last year was a big miss.
Frankly, the Angels shouldn’t be buyers or sellers. Too many holes. The only immediate solution is raising the budget to fill the holes until whatever farm help is left can fill the gaps. Bring up Adell, then in 2023 the 2021 pitching class should start making an impact. Sign everyone we can sign in 2022 off-season IF Arturo allows it. Otherwise it’s .450 winning percentage for another few years.
It’s sad because as CJ Cron and Joc Pederson make the all star team, the Angels could be in a far different spot right now.
And the loss of our 2nd round pick is really going to hurt, given our situation. I couldn’t believe it when Perry, for our 1 big SP signing, signed a guy to a 1 year contract that sacrifices a QO. You only should do that if you are on the verge of the World Series and you need that one last guy to put you over the top no matter what.
If you are going to lose draft picks, you better make it count… like a 5 year contract or something to a star.
Angels should have signed him for a day after he was released by the Padres to let him announce his retirement. Maybe they did not owe it to him but it would have made me happy. Miss this guy.
At least they’re gonna fix that mistake.
Wait, how are they fixing it? Did I miss something?
I totally agree that the Angels should have signed him to a 1-day and let him go out in class.
I don’t think Weave would have mentioned it if it wasn’t happening, ya know?
So I take it we don’t know what is actually happening… but it looks like something
I wonder if he’d like to be a pitching coach…
That would be cool.
We need that explosion GIF right about now to lift us up a little….
Awesome, I’ll be there too. Wonder if he’s a Diamond Club or Don Julio section guy (asking because the 20th anniversary WS guys were between the two). Yes weaver parents had season tickets, seeing his no-hitter live is the single most exhilarating pitching performance I’ve witnessed to date. Prolly a little SoCal bias because he’s from Simi (slimy? – downing) Valley
Weave will be sitting in 540 Row R up with Roger Lodge and the Halo Honks.
Trout, Ward, and Ohtani had one hit amongst them.
Not gonna cut it.
We wasted like four games of runs today…..
TBW has some interesting tweets today about the Trash Pandas success this year and when we last had a team finish at the same level. It was pretty enlightening.
Minasian, are you taking responsibility or not? It’s hard to say.
Does this mea culpa include Hara-Kari?
I know him – the old Cubs PBP announcer
Is he available?
He is…and he’s pant-less. Just the way we like it!
Nice article, good to hear something no matter how canned the statements are.
What is your turning point moment for this sad Franchise from which it has failed to recover?
My personal one was firing of Scouting Director Eddie Bane. I firmly believe the foundation of a team is scouting, drafting and developing the Farm. Eddie Bane’s loss left a giant hole from which the team has never recovered in my opinion.
I would like to hear all of yours.
Note: I’m sure someone will say Arte buying the team but to me there have been too many great seasons under his ownership and signing of players like Vlad, Colon and Hunter to include that moment.
Hate to break it to you but Saint Eddie was not all that. His 2005, 2006, 2007, & 2008 drafts were very mediocre at best. But The 2010 draft was an abysmal failure considering the massive draft capital we had that year .
The curse of the GOAT is real and lives on in all of us!
He arguably had one bad draft. And even that draft was not so terrible. The two KCs (Kaleb Cowart and Kole Calhoun) were decent players from that draft. Particularly Calhoun who was a steal deep into the draft.
And 2010 followed perhaps the greatest draft in Angels history- 2009.
Kole was a great get. But I would not classify Cowart’s career -1.4 WAR as decent. Bedrosian was much more contributory at +1.7 WAR. But to generate virtually zero WAR when you had 5 picks in the top 40 is an unmitigated disaster.
All great points cowboy, so what’s your turning point? I’d like to hear your answer
September 15, 2009. Bill Stoneman’s retirement and the ascension of the Ninja. Stoneman had the respect of Arte ( and Sosh) that neither would detrimentally meddle in the management of the baseball operations. Even with bad drafts , Stoneman would adroitly plug personnel holes with quality acquisitions ( Eckstein, Figgins, Spiezio to name a few) And even if he made mistakes (Finley, GM Jr) he would figure out a way to offset them. Stoneman was burned out and ready to retire but elevating Reagins was not the answer. Tony never had a chance. That allowed Arte to start acting like a POBO with his Take it or leave it offers to Adrian Beltre or his demands for Ninja to acquire Vernon Wells immediately or else.
I mean think about it, When we won the World Series we had one of the top farm systems in all of baseball with a steady foundation of young talent poised to replace the aging Fontaine/Bavasi WS winning veterans. That should have set us up with the right structure for a perineal winning ball. And with the 2009 draft that should have been the icing on the cake. Look at the last regular season minor league team we had that dominated their league: https://twitter.com/TaylorBlakeWard/status/1545979872010416128
With 30 teams vying for one trophy I just think the margin of error is so thin you can’t hire in experienced or under qualified people to control your player personnel decisions.
Very well reasoned and thought out. Thanks for sharing.
We just need 2002heaven to tell us WHO we should’ve hired to replace Stoneman and we can reverse the curse already.
And the difference in money between the two.
In 2004, Angels had 5 players in the Baseball America Top 100. Casey Kotchman, Dallas McPherson, Alberto Callaspo, Bobby Jenks and…Jeff Mathis. Not much came out of that but then players like Aybar, Kendrick, Weaver and Kendrys Morales and Adenhart (RIP) started to show up. Woods, Walden’s and Congers while touted, never made it. Then came the epic 2009 draft. Yes, it has been horrible after a steady flow through the first decade of the century.
Aybar and Kendrick would be terrific slotted in the lineup with Trout and Ohtani. Exaclty the types the Angels need now.
IMHO, Arte walked in to a well oiled machine. Won with free agency, Vlad, Bart, others. Played in an overall shitty AL West which we owned for the most part until 2009….From 2010 onward, he still thought his shit was pure, he knew what it took, he had the Midas touch. He had almost a decade of success not knowing he just got lucky. Became a cheap dick going forward. And here we are today. Not trying to recapture our glorious past, just trying to find a way not to be a joke of a franchise. Ignorance is bliss. I mostly blame him for where we are today.
Preach it, Fansince1971, from the pulpit…..!
I think that’s a likely turning point, but I think there’s more than that: my hunch is that he didn’t fit with the way Arte and the gang wanted to run the organization, the desire for departure was mutual, and he would have been limited in what he could have done had he stayed. So Bane’s departure was more a symptom of the organization slipping, rather than the cause. The real turning point would have been years before, I suspect.
Speaking of whom, does anyone know how he fits into the Red Sox organization? How have they used him? How much influence has he had on the way Red Sox have been doing things?
I think your hunch is pretty dead-on balls accurate.
There are a few, letting Chone Figgins go as a Free Agent broke him, we have never found a 3B since. Letting Mickey Hatcher go, the bats pretty much followed suit. Seeing our 3B coach let go to become same with the Dodgers within hours. Ebel was a keeper. Bud Black and Ron Renoake leaving to manage. We lost some very important people here. going back to after 2009 it was in retrospect like the real heart and soul of the team little by little left to be replaced by well-meaning coaches who were inferior. Sosh was smart when picking coaches until he wasn’t.
For me it was missing out on Greinke and signing Cokehead.
Apparently Cokehead was better for Marketing according to Arte.
“we’ll just win every game 13-12”
Turning Point came out in 1977
Anne was sure easy on the eyes. Sorry, not a baseball comment. Classy lady.
Koo-koo-ka-choo, Mrs. Robinson
Absolutely classic – had me laughing.
FYI – I remember seeing that movie with my parents in the movie theater!!
Clearly, Bavasi for allowing Nolan Ryan to leave and missing out on 14-years of pitching excellence.
Fast forwarding, Arte personally brokering Gary Matthews Jr., Vernon Wells, Josh Hamilton, Pujos, CJ Wilson and now Rendon. Lot of compensation picks were forfeited in these moves but recognize drafts are not too predictable. The Hamilton thing was just weird. Angels let Torii Hunter go that year and they possibly could have signed Ichiro away from NY as he was a FA. Fauck!
Possibly a turning point coorelation between the Angels organization name and the teams record. In 2015, Arte made a move to change the team name, Los Angels Angels of Anaheim, to just the Los Angels Angels. It has been all downhill since, right? One second place and five 4th places in the 5 years since.
GM Jr. was signed before the 2007 season when Stoneman was still in charge. I really dont blame Arte for that one. Arte really didnt start meddling until 2010 and then it was all downhill.
Ichiro was 40 years old when he left NY. His best days were well behind him by then.
Trading for Teixiera
Rendon not playing up to $5 million of his massive contract this year is a major part of this season. With no depth, Rendon had to be playing and a threat and he’s been horrific. Much worse than Pujols contract. Even Pujols the corpse could get an RBI and sorta scare a pitcher.
Ehh, I think the pujols contract was worse then Rendon. There’s a reason the angels won zero playoff games during his tenure here.
Stan Kroenke needs baseball team in his portfolio, and the Angels need a new owner
Was thinking the same then when I saw he owned to Stanley Cup winning Avalanche along with the Rams.
Technically Kroenke doesn’t own the Avalanche . His son does. I don’t think the NFL allows multi sport ownership anymore like the MLB NHL and NBA do. But if there was anyway to make that work I’d support it.
We Really Really need a competent POBO.
Maybe steve ballmer will step in and pay arte.
John Henry Weitzel:
>Oh, and it was all on Peacock. You know, NBC’s new streaming service?<
Which reminds me: any truth to the rumor that all of the Angels games after the ASG will be carried exclusively on Crackle?
Comedy Central bought the rights
Random question… do we currently suspect that Rendon’s current injury is at least partly due to that “switch hitting HR” he hit right before the team fell apart? Or is it totally unrelated?
I put my money it’s unrelated. Unless, his wrists are made of glass.
I’ve never seen any reason to suspect it, so no.
Then again, one Angel (who?) said about Rendon that he’s a “hands” guy. I guess other players are hips dudes, while still others are about the back and neck.
The hips are crucial for EVERY hitter. It is not a case of “hands” or “hips” lol. Anybody who would say that knows nothing about kinesiology.
Especially Rendon who does the squatty potty every time he gets in the box*
*right handed only.
Thank the Flying Spaghetti Monster I had the decency and mental health awareness to sleep through this POS.
So, the road trip was 1-8. Now we get 8 games against HOU/Doyers/ATL. With 4 straight losses so far, we could be up to 12 after ATL, and from there it’s only 3 away from breaking our longest LOSING STREAK OF THE SEASON!
O! Merciless Gods of Baseball! Why hast thou foresaken us? Why? Why? Why?
I still think System of a Down is good 🎵🎸
Just think, the Angels could’ve been owned by the owner of the thriving Golden State Warriors (please no Niners/Rams talk below this).
After MLB denied Lacob, he tried to buy into two other California baseball teams. First, the Angels, but when the Walt Disney Company wound up selling to Arte Moreno, Lacob pivoted to the Dodgers, who were being sold by Fox Entertainment Group.
“I had no right to own either one, really. I was a poor kid,” said Lacob, who moved with his family to Southern California at age 14. “I became an Angels fan and worked at Anaheim Stadium for seven years as a peanut vendor.”
Fun fact, Arte tried to buy the Arizona Diamondbacks but got outbid.
Hes was actually a minority owner in the D Backs but fought with Jerry Colangelo over giving out long term deferred contracts to free agents like the Big Unit.
You’re right. Couldn’t blame Colangelo for that though, though Arte got to do it as soon as he bought the Angels.
Interesting stuff. Thanks.
That’s interesting, if only we could go back in time.
Don’t you like having a fellow Army vet own the team you like? (Being serious, results aside)
lol I honestly didn’t know he was until we ran into him last year. And while it’s always great to see veterans (especially Vietnam ones) have success after service, I’m ready to see new ownership take control of the team.
His time to shine (win WS, who cares about anything else) as an owner has long past unfortunately. Just like to drop those things in every once in awhile… fyi I’m an ass as much as the next, I was trying to see if I could fly a #fireÅrte banner in the sky at one point this season.
Going to be tough to get rid of an Owner. Pittsburgh has tried to do everything to get rid of Nutting as their owner, unfortunately they haven’t had any luck. Then you have the Orioles and the debacle going with the Angelos family that’s going to be a decade of the brothers having a squabble.
In other words, we are screwed with Arte as an owner.
Owning a sports franchise is the ultimate toy for those with too much money. There’s a fixed number of franchises and they rarely change hands once acquired.
A meteor strike on the Big A is more likely than Arte selling. It’s good to have a dream, but I’d suggest finding something more plausible
Arte is not exactly a young man any more…
Holy shit I hate Selig even more. Would’ve been so great to have him instead. Never knew this story.
.278..22…53….WAR 3.0 $3.95M vs $35M a yr
Nobody said life was fair 😢 😠
What you fail to understand is that if we did sign him he’d be a minus three WAR player
And we would pay him at least $12M instead of 3.95
And he would be on the 60 day IL
Bravo all three of you! True (he’d suck), true (we’d have paid more for him) and true (he’d get injured)!! The trifecta!
Why? Why are they all true?
…because of trAdition
You need to post pictures of coaches, trainers, scouts, and analysts working for other teams, not their players.
And possibly, of whatever pixie dust that Dodgers and Rays are using….
He’s on a rookie deal, come on. Not apples to apples.
I suspect the Angels will call up Jo Adell this home stand. In his last 11 games at SL including today He’s now hitting .279/.392/.698 with 5 HR’s and 3 Doubles. more importantly hes walked 7 times in 51 Plate appearances.
His strikeouts are still high (31.3% of PA’s) but I think thats just something the team will have to tolerate .
Probably still a adventure for him in the outfield.
BTW Scott Servais’s buddy/boss has the Mariners in 2nd and 2 games above .500.
I think .279/.392/.698 translates from SLC to something like .230/.290/.450
Which would still be an improvement over Marshy’s struggles
Better late than never, I guess. Now that we are hopelessly buried in the standings.
Nice work Perry.
when the team, as a group, Ks 60% of the time that 31.3% looks good.
When Adell is going right, the ball jumps off his bat. Better pitch selection and more patience would go along way. I would hope someone like Trout tries to help him, like Pujols did with Trout, because Adell has real potential. It seems like we’re wasting it though
Adell’s K rate last year at the big league level was actually only 22.8% in 140 PA’s. Until he injured himself on Sept 11, he also was showing a flare for clutchiness. So provided he can catch the ball and run in a straight line , this could be a welcome addition.
No surprise and I’m sure many knew, but happy Ohtani is getting named as a pitcher to the ASG too (he beat Alvarez out for starting DH spot yesterday)!!
Can’t believe I’m going to be fortunate enough to to see him in back to back ASG as BOTH a DH and Pitcher? Just incredible. Don’t want to get greedy but If he does the HRD this year too, wooooiiiiiee I’ll be happy!!
Next eight games are against the Astros, Dodgers, and Braves. We’ll be lucky to win one.
Awesome! Calling “ballgame” before a pitch is thrown. 😀
In case you haven’t noticed, we suck, and those teams are really good.
We got Ohtani pitching Wednesday dammit!! lol
That’s the game I had as the win, lol
Nope never noticed. 😜😜😜😜😜
The man is a realist. And he is honestly speaking his truth.
You’re right, this attachment to that post would’ve been appropriate IMO
There’s also the all star game break after the doyer series (fortunately)
Ummm. I do not think global-thermonuclear war is inevitable.
Do you ??
That’s a bit optomistic/pollyannish but I’ll take itt!!!🕵
Well one thing that this trip has done is solidify us as sellers at the deadline (which was my opinion already, but up until now there was still reasonable doubt). Some people were still holding out hope that “if we win a bunch in the next series we can get back into it”. Please, please Perry don’t “go for it” this season at the cost of any of our prospects or future seasons. Perry should do everything with a mindset of improving for 2023 and forward.
I’m just wondering what it is we can sell (other than Trout and Ohtani) that will bring back something more than Elvis and Junk.
Rengifo or Fletcher, Thor, Stassi, Walsh, and we throw in Elvis.
Indeed, not much I’m afraid.
Maybe Tepera/Loup somehow in there, if someone thinks they have value.
……and we get a bag of balls and two tickets to Wrestlemania in return
That much! Yessss!!
Nobody is gonna take on Trout’s contract. Ward, Iglesias, Ohtani, and Thor is all we got
Interesting thought… if Trout would suddenly approve a trade to any team, which team(s) would possibly do it (and what would we get)? Just an exercise in thought, not reality of course.
Phillies, just because?
Yanks/Sox/Dodgers because $$$?
If he enjoys Newport, well then, Dodgers.
Close to where he grew up and family, well then Phillies.
Somewhat close to home, tons of press, and a chance at the World Series, star spreading the news.
Trout is tradeable, don’t kid yourself
Shouldn’t it be “don’t kiiiiiiiiid yourself?”
This is 2022 and $30M a year later not 2017
“Sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell, sell ….”
And while you are at it make sure you get rid of ALL our good players and only get prospects back in return !!!
Well, let go of players that would primarily help this season, in favor of those who would help in 2023 and later.
Given how bad we are this season, do we really think we can go from this to the playoffs next year? (That is the same question everyone was asking a year ago too).
Since that question will probably have an unsure response, I’d say we it may be wise to let go of players who would primarily help with this season AND 2023, in favor for players who would help in 2024 and later…. on a case by case basis.
So, Jack, no, we don’t get rid of all our good players. I wouldn’t dump Detmers or Sandy. We need young SP. Probably not Marsh either (unless we have decided he’ll never be good, and we can fleece some other team).
Lmao. Only Ward, Walsh and Ohtani, right?
Note: this is a rhetorical question. That means you are not supposed to answer.
How many more years of control do we have on Ward and Walsh?
I’m 2GA to figure that out.
If those players don’t want to be there and want to be traded, then they should have that right to asked to be traded. I’m just saying.
Who has said that they do not want to be here? Trout for his part has said he wants to stay and plans to stay. As far as I know Ohtani has not said this. Yes, last year he said “I want to win.” That being said, we still have him signed through 2023. Unless you have already given up on 2023 as well as this year his leaving would not be inevitable…
Also, I get sick of saying this, but our current predicament is NOT primarily about the players. It is everything around the players, including coaches, lack of good, quality scouting, including advance scouting for in season opponents, a lack of organizational unity, lack of leadership at the top and above all lack of a winning culture.
That has to change or swapping out the entire roster will achieve nothing.
Damn I hate agreeing with you. 😀 Plus, there needs to be players who are leaders, Trouty is just not one sad to say. This team needs a lot of help. The GM is not the problem, he is hamstrung.
I don’t know how these GMs work under Arte, if I was in that position, I would have resigned after a season.
I’ve already gave up on 2023, or until Arte sells the team.
As much as I would like to agree with you, you know damn well Arte won’t invest in any of that because it’s not marketing related.
Common sense would be that a team competing and making it to the playoffs almost every year is considered good marketing, but I guess Arte has a different style.
Marketing has almost nothing to do with a consistent winning team. Top notch scouting, Top drawer player development, Great coaching and teaching the same at every level, Coaching at the ML level needs to be the very best. We have no real leadership from Management or the Clubhouse.
We don’t take care of business in the minor leagues, have drugs being sold without anyone including Tim Mead giving a shit, a Guy who runs the visitors clubhouse selling stickum to opposing teams, allegedly team law firms paying city mayors off without team knowledge, and so I don’t see were Marketing is that important.
And people wonder why I have even given up on the 2023 season without it starting yet.
You can always hope that Arte kicks the bucket.
I agree we have organizational problems that must be solved, or risk continued problems.
But I disagree with your Ohtani statements.
We should give up on this year. Period.
Regarding 2023… it is too late by the time 2023 begins, to see if we’ll contend or not, to decide about Ohtani. His trade value plummets as of opening day 2023. He is one of the most desired players in baseball, not only this year, but in the entire history of the sport. We would be insane to hold on to him hoping for a fluke playoff appearance in 2023 instead of cashing in on his trade value UNLESS Perry knows he can (or already has) signed him to an extension.
If we have not signed him to an extension by opening day 2023, I would say his leaving is pretty much inevitable.
… unless Arte approves a $240MM 2023 budget, and signs Correa, Rodon, Contreras, etc….
Oh to dream
I agree that you would likely get more for Ohtani trading him now than mid-season next year (if necessary). However, any team trading for Ohtani will surely do so with the intention of signing him long term. That means that they will want to have a pretty good idea that he will stay there after signing a big contract.
That being the case, it really does not matter whether we trade him this season or mid-season in 2023. No team going after Ohtani would be seeking just a half season rental.
Ohtani is so valuable to us as an “Ace” that we have to do everything in our power to keep him here. That means, in short, that we need to do everything in our power to win in 2023. Being Japanese Shohei has giri, he therefore likely feels a certain commitment to the team who have him his ‘”Two-Way Player” chance in MLB.
I am not ready to totally throw in the towel on the idea of keeping Ohtani in Anaheim.
OK, fair enough, I follow your rationale from your opinion.
I disagree in some places.
You said “No team… would.. seek… half season rental”. I disagree there. In years past, you could have a team like the A’s, who have a great season, and see their opportunity to win a title, and they go all-in and acquire a player like Ohtani for 3 months.
However, I do not think that from the Angels perspective that we should aim for that. We get less for him if we trade mid-season 2023. That is why I disagree with you when you say “it really does not matter whether we trade him this season or mid-season in 2023.”
I agree with you however, that Ohtani is an ace and that we “should” do what we can to keep him. However, comments that he has made in the past has shattered that dream for me, along with our performance this season. I’m convinced he wants to play for a winner, and that pretty much means that by 2024 he will be on a different team. Therefore I have pivoted and am starting to operate from a ruthless logical point of view…. that we need to get the maximum value from him. What will be more valuable to our team…. one more season (2023) with Ohtani as our star and taking us to a glorious 83 win season?… or netting us a bunch of valuable pieces that fill critical holes for us and help us for 2023, 2024, 2025….
Quick question for the group: does anyone read the recap or just jump straight to the comments?
No credit to JHW for a great meme pic of principal skinner with an angels in distress logo and saying pathetic? The self deprecating humor, the references to morning baseball (and now even earlier college football) coming to a TV near you soon (USC/UCLA big ten move)… honestly top notch writing from the crew here recently because it’s been FUNNY (what I find funny).
Should I be leaving humor to the main staff? Does it belong in the links? Gamethread? Recap? I’ll answer that myself and say no, not to me at least.
So anyway, until we starting winning and we can have the feel goods from that, please continue staff, your efforts are not lost on me, I’m trying to do my part to keep it fun and light. Just got one guy left, and it’s totally fine to be the heel, I appreciate WWF/E athletes too.
I like the recaps when they have a bit of sarcasm as it’s deserved and I read it prior to the comments. I am glad there is someone to do a recap as it has to be difficult in times like these and a good breakdown helps me understand what happened since I work a lot and miss a bunch of games.
Sometimes after a game there is no explaining what happened, just straight to comments. Boring. Both recap and comments are important to me.
I skip the recaps and go straight to the comments. Only highlights I watch (outside of tweets that come across my feed) are the MLB gameday rewind ones, and that’s only when they win.