The Angels Lose 1-5, The Bullpen To Blame

The Angels looked to expand upon their success in yesterday’s game, but came up short this evening.

In the first inning nobody reached base except Jose Altuve.  David Fletcher and Mike Trout both struck out.  The Angels held the Astros scoreless.

In the second inning Jared Walsh reached on an error, but did not score.  Upton struck out setting up Rojas to ground into a double play.  Kyle Tucker reached on a two out walk, but also did not score.

In the third inning Taylor Ward reached on a single but was thrown out trying to steal.  Phil Gosselin walked but Kurt Suzuki and David Fletcher were both out on fly balls to end the top of inning.  Shohei Ohtani retired the Astros in order to end the third inning.

In the fourth inning the pitcher’s duel continued.  The Angels went down in order with strikeouts by Ohtani and Walsh framing a Mike Trout groundout to Yuli Gurriel.  Michael Brantley got a single on Ohtani’s first pitch this inning.  Ohtani proceeded to strike out the next three batters ending the inning.

The Angels went down in order in the fifth inning, although at least Justin Upton and Jose Rojas made contact.  Taylor Ward threw in a strikeout.  When the Astros came up, Kyle Tucker ruined the scoreless game with a solo home run, but Ohtani retired the next three batters in a row.

The Angels struck out in order to start the sixth inning.  Lance McCullers had nine strikeouts through six.  Yordan Alvarez hit a two out infield single.  Shohei Ohtani then struck out Yuli Gurriel to bring his strikeout total to nine through six innings.  The score was still 1-0 Astros.

Shohei Ohtani singled to lead off the seventh inning.  Mike Trout walked on five pitches to make it first and second with no outs for Jared Walsh who grounded into a 6-4-3 double play.  Shohei Ohtani was at third base with two outs when Justin Upton hit into the third out.  This was a very frustrating inning for the Angels.  Nobody struck out and men got on base.  Unfortunately, they could not drive in those runs.  Ohtani came out in the seventh and retired the Astros in order, picking up his tenth strikeout.  He had walked only one at this point.

In the eighth inning, Jose Rojas grounded out to Jose Altuve on the first pitch, Taylor Ward hit a homer on the second pitch to right center field, Phil Gosselin saw a number of pitches before also grounding out to Altuve, and finally Kurt Suzuki grounded out to Altuve to end the top of the frame.  It was still a nail-biter, but at least Shohei was no longer on the hook for the loss.  It was a 1-1 ball game. 

The Angels brought in Aaron Slegers to pitch and put Ohtani in right field to keep his bat in the lineup.  Martin Maldonado walked for the Astros.  Jose Altuve hit a foul ball to right that a regular right fielder might have caught and eventually reached on a fielder’s choice (Maldonado was retired at second).  Aledmys Diaz singled to right field to place runners at first and second with one out whereupon Aaron Slegers was pulled from the game and Alex Claudio got a chance.  Michael Brantley singled on the fourth pitch he saw to drive in Altuve.  The Angels caught Diaz in a rundown between third and home after a ball hit by Yordan Alvarez.  There are now two outs, but the Astros go up 2-1.  Naturally, Yuli Gurriel hit a 3 run home run to blow the game wide open.   Buh bye, Claudio.  Enter Noe Ramirez who proceeded to walk Carlos Correa and allow a hit to Kyle Tucker.    Finally, Myles Straw lined out to Fletcher to end the inning.  5-1 Astros.

Coming up in the ninth were David Fletcher, Shohei Ohtani, and Mike Trout.  Ryan Pressly replaced Lance McCullers on the mound.  David Fletcher popped out to Jose Altuve.  Shohei Ohtani struck out looking.  Mike Trout hit a fly ball to center field for the final out of the game. This was clearly not the outcome we had hoped for.

Photo credit: Rex Fregosi

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El_Duderino
Member
1 month ago

The Angels are consistently pulling the SP early. Oddly enough this wasn’t really a Scioscia thing, but started with Ausmus and continues with Maddon. Granted, we don’t have the best SP (understatement), but go to baseball reference, team pitching, and sort by GS/IP. The angels are near the bottom or the bottom the last several years.

This year we’re at 4.6 IP/GS. Last year was 4.5. Under Ausmus 4.2.

That’s why our BP is inconsistent, bordering on okay and terrible, in my opinion.

Last night’s pulling of Ohtani at 88 pitches was indicative. It is the one extra inning/1-2 extra outs per game that they are consistently being pulled.

Please don’t tell me that Ohtani couldn’t have gone 12 more pitches. It would have been the difference between allowing 4 more runs or not.

We/Maddon needs to focus VERY hard on getting every ounce out of the SP he can. Because these innings don’t present themselves often, and every inning we can extend them counts. Never pull a healthy pitcher early who is dealing, and we’re in the game would be a great start.

..yaadda yadda saving arms yadda yadda …

Last edited 1 month ago by El_Duderino
JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  El_Duderino

I agree with a lot of this, BUT, the piece you are leaving out is the Angels recent injury history with SP, needing TJ surgeries etc..

I don’t think there is any question that our large number of SP arm problems has colored our philosophy with pitch counts, extending starters etc..

El_Duderino
Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

I agree injuries/players sucking is indeed part of these numbers.

My problem with that is, yes guys have been getting hurt, but that’s not anything unique to our team.

And we have perenially been replacing one guy who goes 4.6 innings with another guy who goes 4.5 innings, injured or not. Some of that is they suck, but some of that is pulling pitchers before they need to be.

I know it’s difficult, but 28 or 29 other teams seem to always do better at it than the Angels.

Last edited 1 month ago by El_Duderino
JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  El_Duderino

Hey, no argument there. Ultimately, to be your best you’ll need starters to go longer — if not it just taxes the bullpen too much and that will come back to haunt you rather quickly..,

The one proviso I would make is that IF you are going with an OPENER fairly consistently (the Angels have not deceided to do that yet) then that changes everything. This means you set up your pen and stream of pitchers differently; essentially you have to be much more flexible in approach.

But overall I agree with your point; you can’t over-extend your pen just to protect your starters….

AnAngelsFan
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  El_Duderino

Hmmm, the Angels are 27th in starter IP with 160.8, well behind the Dodgers, Giants, As and Phillies with 200+.Looking at the top half (15 teams) in starter IPs, there are only 3 teams with losing records (Texas, Arizona, Baltimore) and 1 at .500 (Seattle).

There does indeed appear to be a correlation between having starters that go deep in games and winning.

Moving on from the obvious, while hindsight says Shohei should have pitched another inning, that was a tough call to make. It was a 1-1 game, if Shohei gives up a walk or hit, you’ve got to pull him and the bullpen’s job just got harder. The Angels bullpen needs all the help it can get.

El_Duderino
Member
1 month ago
Reply to  AnAngelsFan

Of course we’re Monday-morning QB’ing here, but to my eyes it looked like Shohei was even better in the 7th than he was in the first inning. In fact I believe he through his fastest pitch 99mph in the 7th.

Cowboy26
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  El_Duderino

Some of the low Starter innings pitched is due to the Angels starters’ excessively high pitches per inning. Looking at it through last week the Angels were around an Average pitches per inning of 17.8 versus other teams like the Doyers and Rays that were in the low 15’s. Obviously alot of long counts by the starters is leading to increased strikeouts but also contributing alot of early shower visits for the Starters.

BBB seemed to be more obsessed with how many times around the lineup. if I recall very rarely did he allow his starters to see a third time around pulling them before that . Which if your starter is running a WHIP around 1.50 its kind of hard to get to the 5th.

Not sure what criterion Maddon is using for starting pitching changes. But to date, I think he has only let 2 to 3 starting pitchers get over 100 pitches . Not sure if this will change as the season wears on , but with long counts and short leashes the blowpen will probably continue to Blow

Bl0chead
Member
1 month ago
Reply to  AnAngelsFan

With the likes of Claudio, Slegers, Cisheks, Guerras, etc in the bullpen the decent relievers have to do that anyway. How many times have these dudes opened the inning and shit the bed only to have to trot out CRod, Mayers, or Watson in a high-pressure situation?

Soggy Joe should be able to look at the starter and realize he’s got another inning or two in the tank based on how they’re pitching. Otherwise, what’s he even doing out there?

max
Member
max
1 month ago

Trout gonna get back in Boston

Mia
Super Member
Mia
1 month ago

Add this date to the calendar as another that doesn’t exist.

Eric_in_Portland
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Mia

we’re gonna run out of dates

Rev Halofan
Editor
Trusted Member
1 month ago

That’s called “marriage”

Rev Halofan
Editor
Trusted Member
1 month ago

This easily could have been the last two games as well, I will take this loss just to know that Ohtani has the ace stuff and brought it. Rendon will be back soon, we got this.

Bl0chead
Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Rev Halofan

You’re not one to sugarcoat things or bite your tongue, Rev. I’m curious to know your thoughts about Maddon’s managerial chops so far?

Rev Halofan
Editor
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Bl0chead

Not even a hundred games managed total and the shittiest bullpen in baseball along with Albatross Pujols up until last week, he’s still got plenty of rope with me.

Fansince1971
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Rev Halofan

I’ve been saying if we can get through May at .500 and then stay healthy, I like the team’s chances. All in all, I’ll take 2-1 in those last 3 games. Easily could have been 0-3 or 1-2.

If somehow the team can manage a series win tomorrow it will build momentum going into Boston

Twebur
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I’d buy stock in this team. Get healthy, stay healthy, starting pitching improving. Still think this offense hasn’t come close to showing what it’s capable of. Could see them getting in a grove and carry them, give the pitching staff some room to breathe, pitch more frequently with a lead would go along way.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Twebur

Overall I agree. IF we can stay healthy…And Heaney has to establish some consistency and be someone we can rely on in the rotation..

But I think the main thing is we have to right the ship defensively. We’ve had 5 games with 3 or more errors. That has to end.

2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Twebur

if only……

  • Arte was like the late George Steinbrenner
  • We had Max Scherzer
  • We had Marcus Semien and chose not to go cheap there who’s the best hitting middle infielder in MLB.
  • We had somebody like Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman or Dennis Eckersly. BTW we did ( K-Rod ), just not in Arte’s era of ownership.
  • We had Billy Beane or Jeff Luhnow. We still have a one man outfield and no pitching except for Ohtani when he’s healthy.
Last edited 1 month ago by 2002heaven
JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

Most of this is ridiculous… We still have and will have Arte. Nothing we can do about that. We’ll have to win in spite of Arte — it sure won’t be because of him…

That said, the Reds did win a World Series with Marge Schott as owner so anything is possible.

Simba
Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

You might want to check Marcus Semien’s stats this season. Mediocre hitting, subpar fielding.

2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Simba

Jose Iglesias defense is overrated I don’t get a orgasm over a few good plays. SS is a offensive position now and not a Pee Wee Reese or Phil Rizzuto position like the 1950’s. Get with the times, SS is one of the most important positions in MLB now why do you think the Mets paid a steep price for Lindor and the Dodgers did 3 yrs ago for Machado?

Simba
Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

You didn’t look at Semien’s stats, did you? Would have been a huge, Albert-like overpay.

Would have been better off keeping Simmons, if that was possible. (I know, big surprise I’d have that opinion).

Twebur
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Simba

All of us need to have a deep discussion about the NY Mets parable, “Rat vs Raccoon”.

Some of us are seeing Rats, others, Raccoons.

We all could benefit from a little deep breathing and seeking the seldom seen “Double Rainbow all the way”.

steelgolf
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Twebur

It is a rattoon.

Cowboy26
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

I thought Semien was now only a second baseman ?

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

We don’t need Billy Beane (can you say “overrated?”) or Jeff Luhnow (lying, cheating scum).

We need a competent GM who is smart but not necessarily a genius.

MarineLayer
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Apparently we will never get that. The current guy has made a series of dreadful FA acquisitions and trades.

2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Exactly like Billy Eppler…..LMFAO!! just kidding
What has Perry Minissian ever won? Luhnow won the 2017, 2018, and 2019 AL West. Don’t be a hater, be a admirer. BTW they didn’t cheat against us so why should I hate them for that? Are you a Dodger or Yankee fan? Why should a zebra or wildebeest hate the winner of a fight between lions and hyenas ( they both wanna kill and eat you! ).

Twebur
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

From what I understood they cheated at home against everyone, regular season too….

Not that they needed to cheat against us. They possibly would schedule maintenance when we came to town….clean the trash cans, a bass drum does need to be tuned.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Twebur

Of course they cheated against us, as they cheated against everyone. Cheaters are cheaters. It is what they do. A thief is a thief, a liar is a liar…..

I think 2002 will get the picture…

Last edited 1 month ago by JackFrost
2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Oh shoot, Mike Tyson would need brass knuckles and steel toe shoes to kick my ass! 😆 

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

NOT a good analogy. The difference between Mike Tyson and you is MUCH greater than the difference between the Astros and ANY other MLB team. 🤣

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

You don’t think the Trashtros cheated during the regular season in 2017? Or 2018?

Of course they did!

That means they cheated against us.!! It is just that the NYY and LAD lost to them in the playoffs so it is amplified…

And I would not want Luhnow for similar reasons to why most of us here would not want Osuna as a bullpen piece.

That does not make me a “hater” but someone who is discerning and has standards.

Last edited 1 month ago by JackFrost
2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

I don’t know if they did. But did they cheat to draft George Springer, Carlos Corea, Alex Bregman or to trade for Justin Verlander and Zack Greinke?

Twebur
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

Tanking with multiple 100 loss season makes the draft both fun and easy.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Twebur

Excellent point !!!

2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

Listen to MarineLayer!
So far Perry Minassian’s player moves all suck and that kinda matters to me more than the 2017 Houston Astros. Raisel Iglesias is on his way to leading the AL in blown saves and ( Quintana will be a bigger loss leader than a Walmart item….LOL!! ). Don’t be fooled by his last performance vs the Dodgers. AJ Hinch is managing the Detroit Tigers…….get over it PLZ!!

H.T. Ennis
Admin
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

I’m not sure Beane is overrated. He would apply the same principles with a low payroll as a high one, and be more successful for it. Look what Friedman has done.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  H.T. Ennis

Well, I would not compare Beane with Friedman. Andrew Friedman is great, I agree. Beane, not so much.

Friedman has taken two separate teams to the World Series, the Rays and Dodgers. He won with the big budget team loaded with talent. The Rays of course lost to the Phillies, but to me that was his bigger achievement; to win an AL Pennant with a team full of marginal talent. BTW, he has to share that credit with Maddon, who was an innovator in his own right.

Beane on the other hand has not even made it to the World Series ONCE.

In my book Friedman is truly great but Beane IS overrated.

H.T. Ennis
Admin
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Why does making it to the World Series matter though?

Beane went all in in 2014 and truly built a good squad, but the Angels ragtag bullpen managed to put it together and beat him out for the division title. Then he went to retool, and he managed to squeeze playoff teams from 18-20 (and probably this year too).

Hard to say he’s not a top 5 decision-maker in the game, IMO.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  H.T. Ennis

I didn’t say he was bad, just said he is overrated. Actually, I think he could both be overrated and a top five GM. That is possible.

Cowboy26
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

But he couldn’t be both Overrated and the top GM now could he?

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

If people talk about him like he’s No. 1 but he’s actually 4 or 5 then yes, he could be…

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Not “the” top. But that is not what I said…

H.T. Ennis
Admin
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

true true true

but is the consensus that he is the best GM in the league, that would warrant tagging him with the overrated label if he truly is a top 5 GM?

2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Dayton Moore is a genius ( Royal’s GM…..he got the Kansas City Royals to back to back World Series appearances in 2014 & 2015, winning it all in 2015. Then followed that up with some really bad years after that, especially 2018 and 2019 ( 100 losses both yrs ). Is he better than Billy Beane? What about Fred Claire ( former Dodger GM in 1988 who built the last WS Championship team the Dodgers had until last year ) he also was there in 1992 ( 63-99 that year )

red floyd
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

We had somebody like Mariano Rivera, Trevor Hoffman or Dennis Eckersly. BTW we did ( K-Rod ), just not in Arte’s era of ownership.

Methinks your anger outstrips your memory. Do the years 2004-2008 ring a bell? Hint. Arte owned the team then.

2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  red floyd

He inherited K-Rod and Troy Percival from Disney and Donny Rowland ( GM before Bill Stoneman ). The team has never come close to developing a good closer since. Kevin Jepson was a home run launching machine and bust. Remember his quote about overpaying K-Rod? The man is a stingy ass miser when it comes to Scouting, Player Development, and Pitching.

Cowboy26
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

It was Bill Bavasi moron not Donny Rowland. Donny Rowland was the scouting director working under Stone before before Saint Eddie Bane took over.

BTW Percival & KRod were signed under Autry’s regime. Percival made his ML debut in 1995. If you knew anything about Angel history you would know that our current Manager, Joe Maddon was part of the decision makers that converted Percy from a no hit catcher and helped develop him into an elite closer.

I would think you would also have to give the Autrys props for developing Bryan Harvey and Roberto Hernandez ( even though we dumped him in a trade) both of those guys became effective closers.

Stoneman, just like his successors, did not have much success in signing & developing closers except maybe for Bobby Jenks who was a shooting star hot mess.

2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Christmas didn’t happen because I said December 24?
How about the fact that this team hasn’t developed a good closer since K-Rod which is going on 20 yrs!!! Yes that also means the entire last decade of the 2010’s. Nobody cares about the 1990’s anymore which BTW we never made the playoffs either. Bill Bavasi was a good scout and player guy, but he totally sucked at wheeling and dealing remember he got his ass kicked by John Hart ( Texas Ranger’s GM in the late 90’s ).

Last edited 1 month ago by 2002heaven
h27kim
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Bl0chead

I don’t see how blame could be directed at Maddon. Many of the players on the roster (esp in the BP) just aren’t that good, esp with injuries thinning the depth. The good that we’ve seen, esp Ohtani being near unhittablen yesterday, are great. Even optimistically, we have reckoned the team as being maybe a little bit better than .500 (and realistically, not that good) and we are not too far off the course to that end. Unsatisfied? Sure. But angry I am not.

Simba
Member
1 month ago
Reply to  h27kim

Roster construction always trumps managerial competence.

All the Scioscia hate was misdirected too. Many posters wished we had Maddon instead of Scioscia … now we do.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Simba

Maddon also has not had a full season yet, lol.

Scioscia had what, 17 years? And the last 5 or 6 were characterized by gross incompetence. So, Maddon and Soth are NOT comparable.

Simba
Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

You are missing the point. Managers have minimal effect as compared to roster construction.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Simba

Well, even though I agree that roster construction and the role of the GM (or now President of Baseball Ops) is generally more important than that of the manager, I think the disparity is played up a bit too much by the saber crew.

If you have a truly innovative manager and pioneer like Maddon the disparity is less great than with an average, run of the mill manager.

Last edited 1 month ago by JackFrost
UtahAlumnus
Trusted Member
1 month ago

At this rate we run the risk of possibly not making the playoffs this year.

max
Member
max
1 month ago
Reply to  UtahAlumnus

Lol

Cowboy26
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  UtahAlumnus

Playoffs???

red floyd
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Someone is clearly asking for this GIF…

comment image

Fansince1971
Super Member
1 month ago

No happy dancing robot 😞

Angels2020Champs
Trusted Member
1 month ago

That was some good baseball. We all know our bullpen is tapped and not very good.
Seeing Ohtani pitch like that was a treat, then go to RF is just something awesome to watch.
Go Halos

Last edited 1 month ago by Angels2020Champs
GrandpaBaseball
Trusted Member
1 month ago

I am through the years been happy with how this club was managed, I did not jump down Sosh’s managerial style, but if Joe is so good then why does he cost us games? Ohtani being moved to RF was smart in that his bat came into play earlier than if he replaced Upton. But his use of the BP can’t be worse, but I concede that his choices are limited.

Shohei pitched his best game ever. He is Shotime and worth paying to see. It is unbelievable that in so many games this season we are held to so few hits.

Last edited 1 month ago by GrandpaBaseball
JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago

Your criticism of Maddon makes zero sense. You say in the same breath that “his use of the bullpen can’t be worse” but then admit that “his choices are limited.”

So how exactly is he to blame for Claudio hanging a breaking ball over the middle of the plate to Gurriel?

It is like you’ve handed Maddon a pack of old bologna, a can of Spam and a bottle of ketchup and yet you expect him to make a gourmet meal.

Please.

All of you (including Blutarsky)… just stop.

Last edited 1 month ago by JackFrost
Cowboy26
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

We need to have better 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th & 9th options out of the bullpen or our season is doomed

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Trusted Member
Reply to  JackFrost

Thanks Jack for calling me out, I’ve come around to embracing the truth. The Spam analogy was brilliant in helping me see the error of my ways.

Maddon is the best in game strategist and tactician since Abner Doubleday invented the game. Perry is years ahead of his contemporaries in the identification of talent. He is a potter that takes formless lumps of clay and molds them into exquisite baseball players. Carpino is a great leader and business executive that makes everyone around him better. Lastly, Arte Moreno is the visionary who mentored this group of individuals into a highly functioning team that is the envy of not only baseball, but global business as well.

Angel fans expect too much. They focus on winning instead of the pure joy of seeing men try their best. We all should feel privileged to give Arte a few measly dollars so that the players can live their best life playing a game and having fun.

It’s only been 3 or 4 dog years since the Angels won the championship. We just need to be patient. With Joe, Perry, Arte and “Carpy” leading the way, we’re so close to regaining our rightful place at the top of the baseball world.

I believe. Yes we can.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago

You moved the goalposts there a bit, lol.

Not once did I defend Arte, Carpino or anyone else in the front office. My criticism of leadership at the top is as harsh or even more harsh than yours is.

My defense was of Maddon and Maddon only. And I do not lump him in with Arte and Carpino. Yes, he is playing in their house and is subject to their whims, but he is also trying to change the toxic culture they have created.

Joe is the one we should be rooting for, not attacking.

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Trusted Member
Reply to  JackFrost

From the Chicago Sun-Times:

Epstein spells out some clues for firing Joe Maddon. There’s no excuse for players going soft, lacking hunger, losing their edge. If you want to play for the Cubs, you had better be more accountable than that. You had better be prepared to push yourself harder than ever. And, no, driving these things home to the players isn’t the job of the front office. It’s clear that, in Epstein’s estimation, Maddon dropped the ball in that regard.

I’ll own the following comments: Joe Maddon acts like he’s the “cool Uncle”. The guy who is trying too hard to be innovative and creative while not losing his Bohemian roots. IMHO, he out-thinks himself. He’s playing chess at a checkers tournament.

With that said, I’ll keep my Maddon opinions to myself.

Last edited 1 month ago by Senator_John_Blutarsky
JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago

Hmmm. How convenient for Theo Epstein. If Maddon is to blame for the Cubs decline that means he himself is off the hook.

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Trusted Member
Reply to  JackFrost

…except Theo Epstien resigned with a year left on his contract.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago

Still, my commentary remains valid. In the court of public opinion Epstein doesn’t want to be assigned any blame. His resigning with a year left does not change that motivation…

Plus, it is very likely that ownership issued an ultimatum that “either you resign or we fire you.”

Finally, even if we split blame for the Cubs decline between Epstein and Maddon I would still take that scenario for us. Maddon will not be around so long with us that a post-championship decline concerns me.

I would gladly take one World Series win for Trout and these Angels even if it means the next few years are ones of underachieving.

2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago

 😆 

2002heaven
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Baseball managers don’t matter.
Front offices and scouting and player development matter.

Twebur
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

No doubt, managers not as important, when much of the decision making is by a laptop.

Completely agree with your assessment of Arte and his friends in the FO.
To me, that’s the biggest issue we have. We both know his not going anywhere. Just hope that our new found payroll solves a few problems. Maybe we will see Perry has a plan….maybe

More time is needed with Perry, that’s just reasonable, but so far, not looking ideal. Make Arte see he needs to fund the infrastructure needed to have a successful franchise. That fruit, if ever produced, will take years.

If managers don’t matter anymore, let’s keep Joe around for a while.

I’m in the dark tunnel with you, just further down the tracks, seeing some light.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  2002heaven

Don’t agree that they “don’t matter.”

DowningDude
Super Member
1 month ago

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aces666high
Trusted Member
1 month ago

Bullpen pitched 2 good games but I doubt anyone here was fooled. Even the good games were filled with walks and hits.

This team has next to no pitching, a handful of good position players filled out by absolute trash and are poorly managed. Oh yeah, still not sold on their fielding. Another long year of watching a bad team.

Had more fun following those average teams from the 80’s.

DowningDude
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  aces666high

This just in … we scored 1 run tonight

Fansince1971
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  DowningDude

No doubt! Any run support for Ohtani and there’d be a dancing robot.

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  aces666high

Where is this “poorly managed” stuff coming from???

Nobody was saying that three weeks ago and now it is like a choir of complaining voices. But it makes no sense. This team has been devastated by injuries and we all knew we had no starting pitching to speak of coming into the season, and yet you say “poorly managed.” Really?

Give some examples , because I don’t think you have good ones.

Cowboy26
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Yes its called “Losing”

JackFrost
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

So, are you agreeing with me or them?

Eric_in_Portland
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  aces666high

you must not mean the teams that went to the playoffs or the teams that fought all year long with KC for the division.

Eric_in_Portland
Super Member
1 month ago

sigh….no shufflebot

Fansince1971
Super Member
1 month ago

Had him ready to go!

Twebur
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

2 games……not 3. Dumb down the standards like everyone else does.

The natives are getting restless…

tommyshalo
Trusted Member
1 month ago

Well we won two days in a row thanks to the BP so can’t blame much here. The offense wasn’t there anyway.

At least it was good to see Sho having command and not walking a batter per inning which will allow more comfortable viewing of his pitching games.
And maybe one day in a game that really matters, he can START and play OF and come back to CLOSE.

Rick Souddress
Editor
Member
1 month ago
Reply to  tommyshalo

If that happens, does he get credit for a W (given the decision is still intact) and a SV?

tommyshalo
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Rick Souddress

It seems that winning contradicts the eligibility to record a SV.

So the most exciting scenario would probably be he starts the game and leave with a non-decision or L responsibility and come back after a lead to record a SV. Which can happen if it’s a game that really matters.

Last edited 1 month ago by tommyshalo
Rick Souddress
Editor
Member
1 month ago

I’m the first guy to blame Maddon or Suzuki or the bullpen for whatever. But let’s face it. Lance McCullers Jr. pitched a great game and we only managed 1 run across 9 innings. No matter how you look at it, 7/9 of the offense didn’t do anybody any favors.

DowningDude
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Rick Souddress

Tip cap, turn page

steelgolf
Trusted Member
1 month ago

I better read that Claudio has been DFA’d tomorrow.

DowningDude
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  steelgolf

Yep. Should have given up negative 3 runs dammit!

Last edited 1 month ago by DowningDude
steelgolf
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  DowningDude

You come in and groove a pitch in the center of the plate to Gurriel in a pressure situation, you should be sent down to the minors to work on your pitching and mental game.

DowningDude
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  steelgolf

steel… you’re blinded by rage. I didn’t see this live, but went back into gameday and screencapped this for you. It was a 2-0 count in a dangerous situation where he inherited a really high leverage situation.

Look at the pitches … Gurriel is just a talented hitter. Tip cap, turn page.comment image

Also 5.1 years of MLB service … DFA Alex Claudio and he’s picked up by the first team who can claim him.

Last edited 1 month ago by DowningDude
steelgolf
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  DowningDude

Watching the game, and the rerun, it looked like Gurriel hit that pitch right over the middle of the plate. Maybe it was the camera angle but it looked like he served up a meatball and Gurriel sent it out.

AnAngelsFan
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  steelgolf

Watching the video, it looked to me like a slider on the middle-outer edge that didn’t slide.

Checking the pitch graph, it is being described as the only changeup Claudio threw. It had the speed of his slider, the vertical movement of his slider, and the horizontal movement of his fastball. Aka, a slider that didn’t slide.https://www.fangraphs.com/players/alex-claudio/12890/game-charts?position=&season=2021&date=2021-05-11&dh=0&data=pi

It was either a command issue on the slider (Claudio’s fault) or a bad decision to throw the change-up there (Suzuki’s fault). Gurriel was looking for a pitch a right there.

Cowboy26
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  DowningDude

Claudio and Chishek must be roomies?

JasonAndrewMartin
Member
1 month ago

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WallyChuckChili
Super Member
1 month ago

We are wasting Shohei Ohtani!comment image

angelslogic
Trusted Member
1 month ago

I hear that Perry is thinking of signing this guy.comment image?itemid=17899878

Cowboy26
Super Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Charles Sutton

I’d would prefer he focus more on his virus control

Twebur
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Or, we should release him, like Albert.

Twebur
Trusted Member
1 month ago
Reply to  Charles Sutton

100% fact…..Gurriel would not have hit his home run last night if “Lord Fauci”
was pitching instead of Claudio…he would have walked.

angelslogic
Trusted Member
1 month ago

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