Arte Moreno’s Legacy of Abject Failure

I was listening to ESPN radio the other day and the duo on the air was discussing the New York Knicks. One host pretty much ended the discussion with the following, which isn’t word for word but nearly so:

“At some point you just have to realize that some teams have bad owners. And when you have a bad owner that owner is going be bad at recognizing talent. So he’s going to hire the wrong people to run the team. Those people are then going to hire the wrong general manager who will then hire the wrong coaches and scouts who will then draft the wrong players and then be unable to coach them up once they are are there to get the best out of them.”

He couldn’t have described the Angels better had he tried. And had the topic been baseball, I’m sure the description of Moreno would have aligned with his description of the Knicks.

To really understand how badly Arte Moreno managed the Angels, let’s take a look back at the team he bought and the one he’s leaving behind. If you heard my interview on the Baseball PhD podcast I got into this a bit, but let’s dig deeper here.

Arte Moreno bought the defending World Series champions. A team of executives put in place by Disney had given general manager Bill Stoneman a budget and gotten out of his way. Arte installed his buddy Dennis Kuhl as chairman immediately despite having no baseball experience. Arte’s buddy John Carpino, also with no baseball experience, would be named President six years later.

But they were smart enough to keep Bill Stoneman around. While Stoneman had dismissed the scouting director who had scouted and signed most of the talent on those early 2000s teams, he was smart enough to keep that talent on hand and hire Eddie Bane as scouting director.

The talent Stoneman kept in the fold and/or drafted is astounding. Tim Salmon, Troy Glaus, Garret Anderson, Darin Erstad, Frankie Rodriguez and more were handed to him. The talent Stoneman’s team would bring in promised a bright future: Howie Kendrick, Erick Aybar, Jered Weaver, Mike Trout, Tyler Skaggs, Mike Napoli and more. There were complimentary players like Casey Kotchman as well as highly rated prospects who went bust (Brandon Wood) or simply never played up to their ratings (Jeff Mathis).

Even less heralded acquisitions like Ervin Santana and Joe Saunders played notable MLB roles for years.

After the incredible 2009 season, Bill Stoneman resigned as General Manager and the above cycle began. Arte, fresh off of hiring a Chairman and President without baseball experience, then got with his team and named Tony Reagins as the General Manager.

It was the wrong hire. Made by the wrong people. Hired by an owner who could not see talent. Reagins had no executive level experience or training and was completely out of his league as a GM.

Tony Reagins is notable in Angels history for a lot of things, none of them good. Primarily he fired scouting director Eddie Bane. Bane went to Boston and was instrumental in building three World Series champions. Reagins missed the flight to the Winter Meetings, traded for Vernon Wells, and was fired within two years.

The wrong GM, incapable of seeing the talent in front of him then went on to hire the wrong scouting director, who brought in the wrong players, and you can see where this is going.

The glory days of the Angels were over the second Arte and his team were fully in charge. It took a while to manifest as the signings of Vladimir Guerrero and Torii Hunter along with the home grown core had some success left in them, but make no mistake about it the organization was rotting from the top down. It just needed time for the stench to reach the field.

Team Arte seemed to rectify the Reagins hire by bringing in young upstart Jerry Dipoto as general manager in the Fall of 2011. He was brash, analytically minded, and ready to take on the world. Ultimately he quit because his voice wasn’t heard.

Arte chose to keep a manager who didn’t want to adapt to modern MLB methods over the man trying to embrace change. Since leaving Anaheim for Seattle, Jerry Dipoto has won more games than the Angels while spending significantly less money and built a top rated farm system.

Mike Scioscia managed for 3 more seasons without winning another division title or playoff game. Many from his coaching tree did embrace analytics and go on to great success. Joe Maddon took Tampa Bay to a World Series and won one with the Chicago Cubs. Bud Black won a Manager of the Year Award. I love Sosh as a person but he just stayed in Anaheim while his act got staler and staler.

That coaching tree was handed to Arte by the Stoneman front office. And every time a talented coach like Maddon or Black left for another organization, Arte’s team brought in lesser talent to replace them.

Team Arte has hired two general managers since Dipoto and three field managers and here’s what we have to show for it:

The Angels have a top 10 draft slot in 2023. This is the third consecutive year of having both a top 10 payroll and a earning a top 10 draft selection.

The Angels have picked in the top 10 in 3 of the last 5 years despite having a top 10 payroll. Next year will make 4 in six.

The Angels have a top 10 pick and a top 10 payroll despite having Shohei Ohtani cost controlled in three consecutive years. His highest salary in that stretch is this year’s $5.5 million.

Every one of those top 10 picks were earned with Mike Trout in his prime.

Despite having back to back top 10 picks and drafting in the top 10 3 of the last 5 years the Angels have the lowest rated farm system in baseball according to both Sports Illustrated and MLB.com.

And it’s not like the Angels were drafting at the back of the pack in other years. The highest draft spot in the last 6 years was 17.

I’d love to say the Angels farm system took a hit because some MLB studs arrived and are contributing here but that’s not the case. Going through the last 10 years of first round picks, the one with the highest WAR for the Angels is Taylor Ward at 3.3. That’s after a huge 3.8 WAR season this year took him into positive territory.

That level of failure within an organization is astounding. It takes years of mismanagement to reach the point where you suck on the field, in the front office, and on the farm. Team Arte has hit it.

Yet despite the huge decline in on field performance, the nearly billion dollars wasted on such dignitaries as Albert Pujols, Vernon Wells, and Josh Hamilton, not a singe one of Arte’s executive buddies has been shown the door.

And this is just the on field failures. Add in the stadium sale scandal, the Tyler Skaggs death and lawsuit, the lawsuits by the players in South America, having an employee sell sticky icky to opposing teams and now suing the team for wrongful termination, and you have a mess in all aspects.

A bad owner who couldn’t judge talent hired friends to run his baseball team. That talentless group chose multiple bad GM’s who chose the wrong coaches and scouts who signed the wrong guys who were coached by the wrong coaches so we never even got the best out of them.

More than anything else, that will be Arte’s legacy here. Failure.

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PedroCerrano
Super Member
1 year ago

Great post Jeff. It brought my comments from the day on whole Maddon/Perry dynamic to mind as it would have better resonated here:

Let’s assume the neither Perry nor Maddon could have achieved in life what they have without being very smart. Often times people who are accustomed to always being the smartest person in the room clash with folks who are the same, often times with results just like this. IQ is important in these roles but can be over valued so Emotional Intelligence (EQ) is the trait that I hope Perry, Nevin, New Owner or TBD possesses. Data or straight old school approaches are valueless without consensus. There isn’t one Band-Aid that can fix so many wounds and a new owner won’t change much unless that person/group comes in with a complete cultural makeover. The symptom of this disease is losing teams but the disease itself is poor decision making and planning over many years IMHO.

Bill Stoneman worked very hard to build organizational philosophies and “The Angel Way” coped from the 70s Dodgers with playing standards and buy in at every level of the organization. It wasn’t perfect but it was a plan and though we as fans often complained because we wanted shiny new player toys the teams were normally way better.

ihearhowie3.0
Super Member
1 year ago

Even great, really successful sports owners make mistakes. Arte was like the reverse King Midas though. Almost always bad results once the Disney treasures left behind all were gone.

I know he meant well. He wanted to win. He was just too proud to admit he was bad at baseball stuff AND corporate culture stuff.

Dipoto had success before and after Arte. So did Billy Eppler. Minasian probably will too. So he didn’t hire bad GMs after Reagins.

I think for as much as his baseball decisions get trashed, not enough gets spent on how he clearly sucked at diagnosing what ailed his business operation because it probably involved looking in the mirror. The whole thing rotted and he didn’t care enough to overhaul the non-sexy, non-baseball stuff.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  ihearhowie3.0

Exactly. At least he tried, and even payroll (realistically) wasn’t a big obstacle. This is more than I can say for a lot of teams. But his efforts failed, so it’s not like we should be afraid to try out NewOwnerz.

ihearhowie3.0
Super Member
1 year ago

Yeah he deserves credit for keeping a payroll higher than most of the league even if big chunks were spent poorly. He very well could have acted like an Anaheim baseball team and spent $100M every year instead of $160-180. He kept Mike Trout here twice. He signed Vlad who chose an Angels cap for HOF plaque. Those are really important figures in Angels history.

Which makes it all the more wild that he still was a failure when evaluating the whole. Just really, really, really bad with personnel and leadership.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  ihearhowie3.0

And luck. I mean look at the whole mural. I pretty much don’t buy any of the Arte bitching that fails to recognize the guys had just strait up shit luck on top of everything else he actually screws up.

If anyone’s ever wondered what I mean by folks having “daddy issues” that they work out on Arte it’s when a person can’t see strait up LUCK playing a part in all this, aside from other bad moves, or tries to make the bad luck something Arte etc is actually doing. That’s a desperate, hyperventilating NEED for every dark cloud to come from one man because he stands for something in their own life and it’s pathetic.

From Garret Anderson’s pink eye to crazy injury history to far more severe than expected performance collapses etc the team’s had crazy crap luck for a long time.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

Worst owner in baseball? Not even close. Failure? Yup. Anything anyone but Arte could do about it? Nothing. Is he selling the team? Yes. Will there be anything we can do about the new owners? Nope.

Well. OK then. That’s what we were working with and then we’ll be working with something else.

This was, indeed, a fantastically done article.

GonFishin
Trusted Member
1 year ago

He’s not the worst in terms of investment into the team…that honor belongs to the A’s owner. But he is definitely up there in terms of organizational failure. Team record and performance aside, the minor league treatment reports/lawsuits is pretty damning and reaks of organizational neglect in a key component of the franchise. Strange because Arte was around for the late 2000s and early 2010s when the minor league system was churning out MLB quality prospects turned players…not sure why they strayed away from that.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  GonFishin

Honestly, and this is just my thought, I think Arte was like the hot German chick in The Last Crusade. He saw how close he was to beating Boston and being a champion. He could brush his fingers against it. All. He. Had to. Do. Is sign a couple more pieces of championshit roster meat and we’d have it!

And he tried that. And, with so many positions blocked by large contracts and so many draft picks lost why spend big on the farm? Need a pitcher? Buy one. Oh wait, all the sudden no one’s letting good pitchers hit the open market. Develop some. Ok… Skaggs, Heaney, Richards…. looks good…. oh poop. Ahhhhhhhhhhh. He falls into the mist of suck. Now he’s stuck and it’s not like he even has 1/2 the Dodgers resources to just buy himself out of the issue. Plus Soth has pictures of you in a weird situation with a horse. The end.

ihearhowie3.0
Super Member
1 year ago

100% agree

We lost to Manny and Ortiz in the postseason a few times and he really wanted that ridiculous 3-4 combo that would win you postseason games.

The lesson is probably that the Braves and Cardinals are just as much a model for success and a much more cost-efficient one.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  ihearhowie3.0

Even better, be the Rays with money.

VictoriousVIC
Trusted Member
1 year ago

So in other words be the Dodgers haha. They are the Rays with money. As much as I hate the Dodgers, from a baseball ops standpoint they really are the model franchise.

rosstrade
Trusted Member
1 year ago

Great article that is worthy of prime-time publication….

BannedInLA
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  rosstrade

It’s far better than much of which is found on prime
time.

JackFrost
Super Member
1 year ago

Read the full thing last night Jeff. It was very thorough and well thought out.

You covered all the key events and areas, and I am glad you did not neglect the meta-baseball events (Skaggs, conditions for MiLB players, sticky icky etc) because these things as much or more than anything were indicative of the Moreno culture.

The thing that stands out to me was that despite the AL Divisions won in his mid years, the team itself really underachieved in a big way. For the talent he inherited and had this team definitely should have won at least one more World Series. Moreno never even got there.

I think this was largely due to his greatest weakness/mistake. Yes, the Hamilton acquisition, missing out on Beltre, the Wells trade etc were all very bad. But the thing that hurt him and the org more than anything was his stubborn refusal to move on from Scioscia despite the fact that he kept hitting a brick wall in the playoffs year after year after year. You did mention Scioscia becoming “stale” but I would have put even more emphasis on this. The underachievement and disappointment in the post-season was due at least as much to the failures and limitations of Scioscia as much as Arte. But again, overall I thought it was very well done.

Last edited 1 year ago by JackFrost
Angelstan
Trusted Member
1 year ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Interesting comments Jack. The Beltre thing cannot be looked upon as an issue. The Dodgers didn’t pay him either and there were clear views of PED-type stuff as reasons why. When Beltre played in Seattle, he was a different player and nothing special. A prudent owner wouldn’t have gone all-in there. Beltre went to Boston (Manny and Ortiz) and suddenly re-blossomed. You figure it out.

The Wells move was brutal and I don’t understand whose idea it was. Losing Napoli who was the clean-up hitter at times was lousy. The Hamilton thing I never understood either. The Angels would throw pitches on the outside part of the plate and Hamilton would flail at them and strike out. Then they brought him in. Very odd. When he showed up about fifteen pounds lighter, everything looked weird and continued from there.

Arte did try in a Jerry Jones or George Steinbrenner way. He just wasn’t able to figure it out. It’s a shame.

I thought Scioscia stayed a little long but I don’t fault him for any losing. He somehow got pitching performances from nobodies at times. I agree with one of the other posters. Luck sometimes factors in also. Angels didn’t get much.

JackFrost
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Angelstan

Luck is the residue of design.

Not sure who said that, but I think it is true.

hockey_duckie
Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Angelstan

Arte did try in a Jerry Jones or George Steinbrenner way. He just wasn’t able to figure it out. It’s a shame.

I’m not sure about this. Arte could have gone over the luxury threshold to afford high end pitcher, but didn’t. He only pretended to be Jones or Steinbrenner b/c Arte does not want to lose out on profits.

GrandpaBaseball
Legend
1 year ago

Many here are very critical of Perry Minasian. but understand the limits he has been given. While being GM is in itself a career accomplishment to be sure, it is under these margins as follows that PTP has had to work.

A limited budget to operate in. At the major league level, it is impossible to build a viable roster when the payroll is so top heavy ladened with non-preforming stars that are usually injured. It was Arte who went after Albert, not the GM. It recently was Arte that insisted on Rendon. Eppler was responsible for signing the stiff moving Upton to too many years. Throughout the years only one Free Agent signing really paid off and that was Tory Hunter. He came at the right time to help mentor Trout. Bloated payroll has been the case for over a decade now. No room to sign or raise payroll to help the team.

It’s October, scary things happen month. I do not know about there being a Cemetary buried below the stadium, but it is not normal by any stretch to have to accommodate so many injuries yearly on one team, and with no room in the budget it’s impossible. Injuries are always said to be part of business, but our Quarterback is constantly down for count. Along with Trouty through the years, being hurt and having injuries, some come to mind like Weaver, Richards, Wilson, Street, Albert, Heaney. Shohei, Rendon, Fletcher, Walsh, Upton, and Stassi and Ward. Are we cursed? Who knows but we still have our down time to consider.

Relief pitching and the nightmares caused by blown saves. Operating under the assumption that relief pitchers should not be paid top dollar because they have either a one in two years or three years that they can be counted on has been Arte’s way of thinking. The halos had the best relief pitcher in all of MLB in FRod and he started asking 14 a season after having a 50+ year of saves. Arte downed that down faster than you can say Jackie Robinson. With the exception of 2014 the Bullpens have not performed very well and as we all are acutely aware, not in the last 9 seasons.

But PTP tried hard to turn things around this season bring in some improvement in the form of Tepera and Loup and others that on paper gave the team confidence, to only blow up and we once again turned to the Scrubs.

Do I believe that PTP needs one or two more seasons? Yes. With the limited resources in staffing and personnel it is obviously apparent to me that the position of Angels GM is difficult at best to improve this team.

DowningDude
Legend
1 year ago

Get our your sharpened #2 pencils, boys and girls! Don’t sniff the dittos!!!!!

Question 1: Many here are very critical of ____________. but understand the limits he has been given.

[a] Jerry DiPoto
[b] Billy Eppler
[c] Perry Minasian
[d] all of the above

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Legend
Reply to  DowningDude

Turd Ferguson selects “E”

GrandpaBaseball
Legend
1 year ago

Very good piece Jeff. Arte’s hands- on approach to be kept in the loop is now with 20-29 hindsight something that can be pointed out as more bad decision making on his part.

VladimirTrout27
Trusted Member
1 year ago

JJ, you pretty much nailed it. The only thing missing was the living situation for minors. Yeah there leaks about how Arte didn’t want FA starting sooner, and minimum spend, but those were rumors. Still great telling of what’s transpired the last 18yrs or so

Cowboy26
Legend
1 year ago

Could this finally be our new POBO savior that everyone has been hoping and praying for?

https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/astros-tension-could-be-problem-for-gm-james-click/

I know this would be item no 1 for the new owner so Come on Arte hurry up and sell the team already.

DowningDude
Legend
1 year ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

That link and your intro appears to be “click” bait.  😆 

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Cowboy26

I’d snap Click up. He’d do a great job. Even if we kept PTP as GM I bet Click would be an actual good fit (instead of total fan suction bullshit) to plop in as POBOOFBSNS

nishiogawakun
Super Member
1 year ago

Amen. Also, a self serving renaming of the team to LA. Judge them by their fruits. It’s taken me a few years but after a while, it’s just too hard to rationalize. There’s bad luck, and then there’s failure after failure. It’s Occam’s Razor, it’s Arte. Goodbye and good riddance.

DowningDude
Legend
1 year ago
Reply to  nishiogawakun

LA Judge? I wouldn’t put it past Arte.  😋 

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  nishiogawakun

I think just about every owner was gonna want to change ANaheim to LA because LA>Heim.

You’re also forgetting the other constant in the equation. Angels fans. The ju ju.

2pints
Trusted Member
1 year ago

yeah I’d think the potential for name change and market expansion would’ve looked like meat on the bone for any potential buyer at the time.

Mia
Legend
Mia
1 year ago

I can remember the days at Halos Heaven when talking bad about Arte got you crucified.

Us darned kids just needed to be grateful we had an owner willing to spend.

Just happy it’s the mainstream opinion now.

Sale can’t come soon enough

Jayman28
Trusted Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Mia

Still an issue here, like if you criticize Arte, you will be called ugly and how Arte has better hair and is better looking that you.

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Legend
Reply to  Jayman28

…and don’t forget the cheap beer. It’s all about the cheap beer.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Jayman28

I don’t know if he’s better looking than you. I just know he’s a better than you over all.

Turk's Teeth
Editor
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Mia

I remember those days too. What’s funny though – this has been awfully clear to many of us for a decade. We’ve been stuck in a farcical Palm Springs like time loop since the Bane firing.

Jeff’s Oct 6, 2022 article here ironically comes nine years to the day (Oct 6, 2013) I wrote this article: The Three Sins of Arturo Moreno.

But if the worm has turned on Moreno, what’s amazingly still controversial is that at least half the fanbase still thinks Jerry Dipoto is a bête noire among post-Stoneman GMs, when strategically and directionally, he was right on most things all along.

Not every individual decision panned out (Baldoquin!), but he was the one GM laser-focused on a pitching pipeline (retaining Richards, signing Wilson, trading for Skaggs and Heaney, drafting Suarez, Barria and Newcomb), laser-focused on building a competitive analytics and ops department, and the one GM since Stoneman to produce winning clubs in the majority of his years with the team. His lone losing season was the season Moreno tightened the budget and forced Jerry to dumpster dive.

But, despite his embracing what all the fanbase embraces now (pitching, analytics/ops/scouting), folks hate him because he quit on Arte and Scioscia mid-season. But I always admired that. Moreno and Scioscia were wrongheaded, and Dipoto was actually an independent, and wanted a GM role that had meat on the bones. Welp – you get what you deserve when you favor yes men over folks with vision.

And the fact that he took Seattle’s farm from #30 ranked to #2 ranked in less than three years flat puts the lie to the old canard that he was a mangler when it comes to farm development. Arte, with his focus on expensive free agents during a CBA period that stripped teams of first and second rounders for FA signings was the real mangler. You can’t build a farm when your first pick is at #114, kids.

So after all these years: still a Moreno antagonist, still a Dipoto apologist. When you ask to see the future, sometimes the crystal ball just goes dark. Doesn’t mean it’s broken – sometimes the future just sucks.

DowningDude
Legend
1 year ago
Reply to  Turk's Teeth

I think we dig in and hate jerry only because someone continually trolls the entire site about him. One of the famous “DiPoto Thanksgiving” attendees. Otherwise, there’d be plenty of pro-DiPoto fluff to complement his comments. Emoji’s and headshots drive a community mad.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  DowningDude

It is amazing. An asshole so powerful that it negates people holding up Derpo, possibly the greatest example of Arte pooch screwing ever, as they complain the same complaints day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day after day.

In my opinion the Soth vs Analytics/Pujols don wan it/Hambone/Derpo tucks it era was the worst moment we’ve had.

I am loving the revisionist “Everyone would shit on me if I complained about Arte” bullshit on this post. When? 2006? People were constantly bitching about Arte on HH by about 2007. That’s how I know Mr Demandachamp is a sad f*** who will never fill that dad shaped hole inside them no matter how competitive the team is.

It’s been an ever thicker copium chamber around here for much longer than 10 years and I can’t remember the last time I saw anyone crazy enough to comment that Arte’s actually a GOOD owner.

But hey, life’s the victim Olympics. Everyone gets to try to qualify.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Turk's Teeth

I’ve never hated Jer Jer for quitting on Arte/Soth. I do wish he’d done it after the season. But he did do a solid job, most of the worst moves he made were obviously Arte moves other than Baldo/Derpo Four, but every GM has those burps. Soth’s input was just insanely over the top + Arte splashs.

Jer Jer is crap cause Mariners. That’s all.

DowningDude
Legend
1 year ago

and also because tootie too

YOUknowulovetheIE
Trusted Member
1 year ago

Shit rolls downhill.

Sosh needs alot of the blame as well.

tanana40
Super Member
1 year ago

This timeline helped. The 2009 Angels were so good and they remained competitive in 2010 (Morales grand slam and broken foot), 2011, 2012 (the day that never happened). They stunk in 2013. Then 2014 was an aberration. 2015 they almost pulled off a Wild Card berth, then we have had 7 years of mediocrity.

I so wished that the Angels could have pulled off another World Series appearance at least in 2005 (when they lost to the ChiSox) or 2009 (lost to Yankees after finally beating the BoSox).

The Maddon book excerpt today was interesting. I don’t know about Perry but I have some hope about our pitching in the minor leagues.

BannedInLA
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  tanana40

I have some hope with our starters in the majors too !!!

2002heaven
Super Member
1 year ago

Damm JJ you shouldve let me in on this article!!
Except then it would’ve been 600pgs long…..he can’t be gone soon enough in my opinion. GGOMP, CB26, and most of all Roger Lodge will shed crocodile tears….

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Legend

Outstanding article Jeff.

MarineLayer
Super Member
1 year ago

Jeff, I was waiting for your take on Eppler and Minasian. I saw in once of your comments Minasian could stay on as an assistant. I have no problem with that, as long as he doesn’t make actual decisions except whether to stick Coke or Pepsi until the vending machine,

MarineLayer
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

I assume you agree with me he’s not good at the rest of it. Making him a pitching scout, more or less.

MarineLayer
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

I like the O’Hoppe trade now, and I agree with you on the res.

2002heaven
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Colin Cowherd made that assertion with Jerry Jones and Bill Belichick saying JJ can’t seem to draft good defenders and BB can’t draft very good offensive players. We need a Latin America Master Super Scout like the guy the Dodgers had who got Fernando Valenzuela who recently passed.

JackFrost
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  2002heaven

Lol. T. Diggs is “not a good defender?” Micah Parsons is “not a good defender?”

Cowherd is an idiot.

2002heaven
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  JackFrost

That was in 2020.

JackFrost
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  2002heaven

Still, D.Lawrence, Van DerEsch and a number of other good defenders have been drafted by Jones,.

You can criticize JJ for certain things but his drafting is not one of them.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  JackFrost

Yah. Them Cowboys have not been half bad in the draft. Not since Jones’ son got more involved.

nishiogawakun
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Oh wow, never thought of that. That’s genius.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Friggin great thought! Why aren’t there more obvious distinctions between positional amateur scouts? It’s like a lot of things in baseball probably. Old man doesn’t want to give an inch, has to act like he knows everything about everything, don’t ask him how many actual MLB pitchers he’s brought to a teams attention….

Teams FO could actually hire freelance scouts to fill needs. Short on 3B or OF talent? Sign a freelance OF scout for 2 years and have him start finding you guys to draft or sign out of S America…. would be kind of cool.

DowningDude
Legend
1 year ago

Seems old Tom Kotchman could pick position players as well as pitchers, no? Off the top of my thin-haired scalp – it sure seems so.

Mikeal1st
Trusted Member
1 year ago

Perfect!

JackFrost
Super Member
1 year ago

Good timing with this piece Jeff !

Have not read it yet, but plan to.

I am fully onboard with your sentiments (at least as expressed in the title).

For me the news that came out today makes it clear where this team needs to go:

  1. Get new owner
  2. Said owner FIRE Perry Minasian
  3. Bring in a new GM who will respect the manager
  4. Nevin is paid his contract and goes home.
  5. Bring back Joe Maddon
  6. Get new hitting coach
JackFrost
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Yeah, I think with the news that comes out today, firing Perry and getting a new GM becomes a must. Otherwise, the org is living with a poisoned well.

Fortunately, the new ownership should be here in the not too distant future, which means we can start with a clean slate in leadership. I do like most of our players however (especially the position players). I think adding a piece or two in the bullpen would be important, but I would definitely keep our core intact.

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Legend
Reply to  JackFrost

I’m just not sure new ownership gets “here” before the 2023 season starts. It would not surprise me if through a stroke of pure dumb luck the same cast of characters gets the team into the playoffs next year and somehow parlays that into jobs for the 2024 season. It’s the Angels – I mean the unexpected and unexplained is just another day at the office here.

JackFrost
Super Member
1 year ago

Yes, you are correct about that Bluto; with the Angels you have to always expect the unexpected. I would not even rule out Arte having a change of heart and deciding to not sell, or at least keeping the team a bit longer, lol. That would be our worst nightmare !!!

Last edited 1 year ago by JackFrost
Dogface1956
Trusted Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Won’t happen why should he accept a lower position job here? I think Perry has done a pretty good job given all the issues with the Angels not sure why so many here ‘hate’ on him.

As you said he seems to have a pretty good eye for pitching talent. His last draft was looks on paper like it is pretty good for position players with a couple being maybe a year or two away. His trade for O’Hoppe looks like it was pretty damn good, I did not want to lose Marsh and thought the trade was terrible, but the more I see of O’Hoppe the more I think our catching issues will behind us either this year or next year.

People blame Perry for Loup and Tepera, but on paper those signings did not look half bad, their previous records were good, they just performed like relief pitchers, in a word inconsistent and many people here that are critical of Perry for those signings, liked them when he made them.

Dogface1956
Trusted Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

But he really did not have the budget to go out and get anyone, I think he went with spending his limited budget on the bullpen since he felt the infield was in better shape, until we lost Fletcher and Rendon, but they got injured early. So I think he had to pick the lesser of two evils.

BannedInLA
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

This is fair.

I assume you mean SS & utility.

Difficult to plan around what happened with Rendon, Fletcher and Walsh this year.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

No Jeff. There’re at least 70 people on this site who could have done a better job in the same situation. I’ve seen them say so themselves. I haven’t seen any of them state what they would have done, other than apparently march into Arte’s office and demand more money, but that doesn’t matter, they are all more smarter than Perry.

It’s pretty simple. Infield was the weakness PTP had to allow in order to address pitching. If Fletch and Rendon had been healthy it would have worked fine. Same with if Loup and Tepera didn’t suck.

But apparently the 70+ geniuses on CtPG think we will, at some point, find a GM/POBO/QRXTUV who can plan for 50% of his roster to get hurt or underperform while never depending on sheer dumb luck for anything.

DowningDude
Legend
1 year ago

We need another Mike Trout or FIVE to sit on the bench. Goddamned Tooth Perry not getting it done year after year!!!!!

BannedInLA
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Dogface1956

Completely agree.

I would be OK with giving Perry more time as well.

This discussion is so difficult not knowing when, or even if, new ownership is coming in.

Anyway, the chief complaint the past 5+ years has been pitching and we’re finally seeing some real reason for optimism in
minors & majors.

I don’t want to upset this process now.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  BannedInLA

If we were stuck with Arte long long term I’d want to keep Perry. I don’t actually think he’s done a bad job at all. I think we’ll likely see that in the future. But the main reason I’d want to keep him is because Arte has seemed to have decided THIS platypus is the guy he will let drag the Angels into the 2010s while NOT “helping” him by signing Jose Abreu to a ten year contract and I don’t want to screw with that.

BannedInLA
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  JackFrost

I would say that 2,3 and 4 are all linked. A new GM would mean that Perry is 100% gone and Nevin is 99.99% gone.

I have zero read on Perry and think that managers in baseball are essentially overrated in terms of importance, but what do I know. Nevin seems like a solid leader of men & emotions.

Last edited 1 year ago by BannedInLA
Jayman28
Trusted Member
1 year ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Wow, you are actually on board with firing Perry and Nevin? That actually threw me off.

I don’t think Joe is coming back, too many bridges have been burnt I think.

BannedInLA
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

I’m firmly in the “No on Joe”
camp.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  BannedInLA

Joe… sound and fury signifying NOTHING. And he’s a punk ass snitching bitch to boot. We don’t need no Joe.

JackFrost
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  Jayman28

What bridges?

We are talking about a new owner. He would be essentially starting from scratch, except that he still has that wealth of baseball knowledge acquired over years and years of coaching and being in the Angels organization.

2pints
Trusted Member
1 year ago
Reply to  JackFrost

So in your dream where Maddon gets re-hired as Halos manager, does Maddon show up on the first day with the mohawk, or does he keep that one in the bag for an eventual losing streak?

btw, Maddon is gone and not coming back, no matter who the owner is. He wasn’t all that good of a manager over his time with us, I saw nothing that made me think they really need him back.

In a comment above you said that the well has been poisoned due to Perry calling the dugout in-game. That poisoned the well with Maddon and his ego, who is no longer with the team, not Nevin. Phil may be just fine and dandy working with Perry, even if Perry once got a bit aggressive when trying to protect the health of the game’s best player in a blowout game.

DowningDude
Legend
1 year ago

That 2010 Winter Meeting – targeting Carl Crawford, falling back on Adrian Beltre – the “take it or leave it” offer to Beltre … this was the end of our franchise.

Jan 6, 2011 – Adrian Beltre signs with Texas for 6yr/$96M after a Dec 8 2010 article in OC Register from 2010 Winter Meetings said that Boras was shooing for 5/70 and rejected an Oakland A’s offer of 5/64.

Jan 21, 2011 – The Vernon Wells trade.

What a cluster-fuck!

Angelstan
Trusted Member
1 year ago

Wow. You are not an Arte fan. I have noted some of these issues. I’ve never seen them all laid out like this. Let’s hope for better in the future. Rengifo looks like he could have turned a corner. Ward is solid. Soto provides some hope. O’Hoppe looks real. A healthy Walsh who hit like 2021 would be nice. Then emphasis on pitching has helped that side.

Now the team needs a deep pocketed owner.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

As far as business goes, I am really curious, what will NewOwnerz do to ring more value out of this team? I have read in a few places that people think the team could make a lot more money. That would be cool.

I am almost certain NewOwnerz will move the team to LA. I actually suspect the rest of the owners (other than the Doyers) want that too. NewOwnerz will probably have that explained to them when approval is in the offing. It just makes way more sense than building a “new start” in Tustin or something.

2pints
Trusted Member
1 year ago

If the halos move it won’t be to LA. I’d bet it’d be Vegas or Portland or Nashville or something. If they stay in SoCal then they stay at their current site. Just my prediction.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  2pints

Oh yah. I’m just hoping for LA. I really really doubt NewOwnerz plan is to eat Anaheim’s shlong for years and then just rebuild the crumbling husk of the Big A in 2031 for 3X what it would cost to build new in another city. All to make…. pretty much the same money as they are now.

So yah. Hope for LA, cause Las Vegas etc is just as realistic an option as another not-LA location.