Griffin Canning was on the mound and attempted to get the Angels back to .500. Unfortunately, while he was decent, getting hit hard allowed him to only pitch 5 innings and the bullpen had to take over. A bullpen that blew, as they allowed 6 runs. Despite the web gems from both teams, the real highlights were the wild pitches made along the way, and dumb Maddon decisions.
Web Gems and Blasts
The game started with a bang as the hit parade arrived in the first inning. Upton leadoff double, then 3 straight singles by Stassi, Churches, and Ward with another single by the Goose to give the Angels a 3-0 lead. It would have been more, but Walsh was robbed.
Canning appreciated that and got out of the inning quickly thanks to an amazing double play by Ward and Goose.
In the second, Ohtani got in on the action with his 19th home run of the year, it was now 4-0 Angels.
For the bottom half, it was another quick inning by Canning, thanks again to stellar defense, this time by Churches.
Yes it was one of those days, just defensive highlights one after the other. The Angels didn’t score in the 3rd, but they did have another defensive highlight.
It was seriously both teams making plays every inning, like in the 4th when Laureano robbed Justin Upton again.
So of course Laureano hit a home run off Canning to make it sting worse. 4-1 Angels after 4.
Ohtani reached on a bunt single to start the 5th, he stole second, and reached 3rd on a groundout. However, he was unable to score. The A’s did score, however, in their half of the inning. 4-2 Angels.
Gosselin flared a single in the 6th, Fletcher hit him to 3rd, and that was enough for the A’s and they pulled their starting pitcher. Too bad their reliever struck out Upton to end the threat.
Watson was now pitching, and the A’s got 3 runs off of him before he was pulled, just making contact again and again. Cishek came in and threw a wild pitch to allow another run. More will score and Cishek was pulled. Suarez came in and another run later, was finally able to end the inning with the score 8-4 A’s.
It was looking bad for the Halos and pulling Canning looked really dumb. Moreso when the Angels didn’t score in the 7th. AT least the A’s didn’t score more in their half,
The Angels did nothing in the 8th, seemingly resigned to their fate, the A’s just wanted this over with as well, and went down easy.
9th inning came and the last chance for a big comeback came and went without much effort and the Angels lost.
The Angels are now 33-35 on the season and play 4 vs the Tigers. A Tigers team starting a Rookie tomorrow and are on a winning streak. Drink responsibly.
Anyway, it’s a 162 game season and if we take care of Detroit we’ll be winners again
This new dynamic where random pitchers will now be incapable of getting an out because they relied entirely on enhanced grip is gonna be interesting. Watson and Bundy both looked totally incapable of missing bats this week.
Do Sabermetrics work? Why yes, yes they do. But all they do is inform how to change the odds of getting outs. As of lately the success of our Shifts have not paid off, but like everything we do with Sabermetrics, it will pay off more than it does not.
We do not have the best player’s at every position currently because of injuries. But the bottom half are continuously coming through and are doing a credible job.
Our starters are capable of more the Maddon believes, as he pulls them early to allow the Blowpen to come in. If a Relief Pitcher is not pitching well one night does it make sense to have him enter the game the following day with the bases loaded? Or stay with a pitcher who is getting hammered pitch to more than 3 batters? Line ups that make no sense. When Stassi was heating up he batted down the order as an example and now he is up the line up but only because of injury. Batting Rendon either at 3rd or 4th in in the line up when he was not hitting well.
I think Joe is a nice guy, would love to talk Baseball with him or go have a couple beers. But I have very little confidence in him now. His coaching staff is failing in working with the defense and with the BP staff is well…..they are not coming through with helping the RP.
By not allowing the starters go longer in their starts and relying on pitchers who have lost way to many games is just counter productive. We may have a winning record if not for these moves that tell the starters you have little trust in them.
Ha! This is great!
If I remember correctly Sosh was anti sabermetrics, Ausmus was offered the job if he only accepted the use of sabermetrics. I’m sure the reasoning behind pulling the starters 5 or 6 innings deep is because sabermetrics. Unfortunately, our bullpen isn’t good enough to use this strategy. Sabermetrics is a toss up at times, just look at game 6 of the last years World Series.
I think if Joe had let Canning pitch the 6th the As wouldn’t have scored. And then the bubble would have burst in the 7th instead.
Taking all emotion out of it – this was a hindsight loss. With the benefit of hindsight, Canning was actually pitching better than it seemed in the last two innings he pitched. The A’s were knocking at the door, but he kept it shut. That was revealed when the blowpen simply exploded with Watson fooling no one and solid contact following solid contact. So, in retrospect, Canning was pitching great and should have stayed in.
That said, he did appear to be tiring and the A’s appeared to be getting to him with pesky AB’s and their gritty and hard nose play. I would not have pulled Canning after 69 pitches particularly with how much the bullpen has been used lately. But I cannot necessarily fault Joe for doing so. It was a coin toss at that point that only became clear (i.e. that it was the wrong move) after it was too late.
Credit the A’s. That is a team I would love to root for if I could. They just never say die. Remember, they pooped the bed to start the season, did not let it bother them and then rolled off something like 13 in a row. You cannot win in Oakland without playing superb baseball. The Halos played half a game of excellent ball and then it all fell apart. That seems to happen frequently with the Angels and almost never with the A’s.
As much as I hate them, Oakland has a superb organization that drafts well, rarely misses on free agents, develops players teaching them to be great defenders and patient at the plate, takes pitchers and makes them better and instills in them a hard nose determination that I envy. Its old school baseball – meaning like the 1940s style. They play in a crappy stadium, poor accommodations for the players, relief pitchers warming up on the field like it is highschool, don’t spend money and yet they get every drop of effort from their players. It starts from the top and that attitude trickles down through every one of them. Tip you cap. They are better in all aspects than the Angels other than they do not have Ohtani and Trout – and yet they are consistently achieving more.
Frankly, the Angels Organization could learn something from the Oakland A’s.
could learn….but won’t
This is excellent. Should be a fan post
Yeah I felt it was probably a little long for this thread and a little short for a Fanpost. Appreciate the nice words.
It was perfect for here. Postgame is usually full of short gripes. This gave me something to practice my reading comprehension on.
The A’s also routinely let their starting pitchers throw 100+ pitchers, and pitch through tough innings. They have for years. We have to understand that there can be both short-term and long-term consequences for this, and not all of them are bad.
Agree but their pitching is generally better and therefore can go deeper. That said, no doubt Maddon would have pulled their starter today – probably in the first inning making it a bullpen game. Oakland got 6 serviceable innings out of him by not removing him. That’s your point illustrated right there.
Irvin would have been pulled in the 1st if he was a on the Angels
We don’t let our starting staff become stable workhorses, Joe thinks of them as My Little Ponies. He makes the pen do all of the heavy lifting.
I would never want to root for the A’s. They are perennial underachievers (like we used to be under Sosh). They lose in the playoffs every year.
Just watch ; they will LOSE AGAIN this year! And before you ask, no, I would not want to be competitive every year and ultimately lose in the postseason. To me that is more disappointing then not making the playoffs at all…
Our #1 problem is pulling our starters too early. Convince me I’m wrong.
I certainly cannot argue with you as it relates to this Oakland series. However, I would say that a crappy, inconsistent and unreliable bullpen is the #1 problem and that combined with pulling the starters arguably too early is not a good combination.
Part of the problem is inconsistent starting pitching causing overuse of the bullpen. There’s no workload balance between starters and relievers. Starters get pulled too soon, both because they (frequently) suck, or Joe has an itchy trigger finger. That overworks a mediocre bullpen. The result is explosions like today.
Yeah, it’s a bad pen, not constructed wisely. We bought penny stocks and I knew in March this was a large risk heading into Opening Day. Especially if Mayers did not repeat. Maybe the pitch-to-contact, soft tosser, different look(s) and a couple of 6′-10″ thrower approach would work with a different set of arms but call me skeptical. We’ve seen what Rasiel can do when he is on his game; great velocity, swing and miss, nasty stuff.
I feel for the team to have to play behind this pen and watch guys fail to throw the ball over the plate and melt down.
We’ll never know. Prove me wrong.
I think we go to the pen too early. Wacha gonna do, you whanna fight about it?
Yep thats exactly what happened on Mondays game.
Imagine for a second, Bally Sports would not show the pitch count stat on the tv feed, that we could just focus on how well the starter is getting people out and is in command of his pitches. If the starter is dominating, why yank him.
Little frustrating for me to read pitch count warnings posts that seem to indicate that we had no choice but to pull the starter even though he was cruising or doing well. Even more frustrating to see the manager behave this way. Like really, will his arm fall off at a certain number? If you are getting outs and are in control, stay on the mound.
Shood wee let Dylan Bundy pitch 7 innings and be behind by two touchdowns?
This is still a bad team with only 4 good players. Has our farm system developed a All Star caliber player since Mike Trout? 😪 💩
14-20 record against AL West….surprisingly better than I thought.
Haven’t played well against our own division in many years.
If we were to play ourselves, I still think we’d lose.
Can we take away Maddon’s decision-making privileges when it comes to managing the bullpen? Jesus H Christ he is TERRIBLE.
There’s a good chance he has a chart from the front office telling him to do this stuff. This is especially true about those shifts that didn’t work.
I’m increasingly convinced that the real adv that Oakland has is with their old fashioned baseball acumen, not the sabermetrics junk. Moneyball was fake news.
A bad bullpen will make any manager look terrible.
I agree with this comment but only to a point. If Maddon has a “bad bullpen” why pull the starters out of the game at 60, 70, or 80 pitches? Unless the starting pitcher is getting shellacked, leave him in at least 7 innings or 100 pitches in most cases.
We don’t know for sure, but it is of course possible that pressure is being applied from above meaning Carpino, and Perry (now towing the company line) to carry out a semi-formulaic game plan which involves pulling starters early ; i.e, in 5th or 6th.
In an attempt to be “modern” and up to date with analytics the Angels may be trying to be the 2017-2018 Milwaukee Brewers.
The problem with that approach (if that is indeed what is happening) is that you need a consistent, strong, and DEEP pen for that plan to work.
The Angels really only have two guys who fit that mold: Raisel and C-Rod. You need four or even five reliable guys.
Mayers COULD be the third guy but has proven to be too inconsistent.
The other thing is that the Brewers were willing to bring the number 1 or number 2 or 3 guy in (more often 2 or 3) in the 5th inning of close games. If Joe had used Suarez instead of Watson yesterday we might have won. He used to go to the hot hand in Tampa, not sure why he has gone away from that.
Maybe he has become too loyal (like Soth) and more concerned with sharing the work load and keeping guys happy than with winning games. A manager DOES need to build relationships and establish trust etc, but in the end he has to place winning games above the happiness of any individual player.
At this point, feed them all pork burritos on the plane flight home ✈️, everyone test positive for pig roids, and we can just cancel the season and move on.
Pig Roids? Couldn’t we just wash the pitchers uniforms in sticky lube and get the full staff 10 day suspension?
Then it becomes a two-man rotation: Trout and Walsh.
So, what’s the “solution” now? I’m fairly positive that the current organization probably can’t be rebuilt into a contender any time soon. We have a handful of good to excellent players who are making too much money (as a share of the payroll), and an organization lacking in quality role players and/or can’t find/develop quality role players. People talk about getting rid of lousy pitchers that we do have, and, fwiw, they will be gone next year, but that only leaves us with a dozen or more holes to fill, and if all we wind up getting are bunch of mediocrities that simultaneously make too much (for what they deliver) and too little (compared to top players), we’ll be back in the same boat again. I don’t know what the “solution” will look like, but the only way forward seems to be to keep diving into the dumpster, but find better ways to evaluate castoffs and place them in contexts where they can do a better job. I don’t think organizations like Tampa or Oakland are necessarily that much better at drafting and developing “prospects.” But they always seem to convert rule 5 draft picks, marginal trades, and other castoffs into quality players (at least in roles that they are asked to fill), even if not necessarily superstars, and that gives them roster depths. That seems to involve as much of old school baseball knowhow as newfangled saber stuff, and lord knows that our organization is lacking in that dept too.
I’m vowing not to get frustrated this season since I don’t think we’ll make it to the promised land. (I’m still fairly optimistic that we could hit 85 wins, mostly by beating up mediocre or worse teams). But if the team tries to get by by just adding a bunch of mediocrities without a clear plan about how to develop and employ them effectively, I’ll be, well, sad.
The main problem is the beast ( initials AM and his henchmen cronies John Carfino and Dennis Kuhl who don’t know a damm thing about baseball ). Somebody’s advising AM ( who is it? Bill Stoneman, Mike Scioscia, 18 months ago I made the assertion of Tony LaRussa ). This organization is harder to get answers from than North Korea and some CTPG members say transparency sucks or is overrated. We do suck worse than Oakland BTW in drafting and scouting talent ( just 5 players on the opening day roster came from our farm system and Mike Trout was now a long time ago and this is worse if you look at since that point in time. ). Oakland has went through two tear down and rebuilds since 2009. Yes obviously they know how to rehab broken toy veteran players like the Moneyball movie showed, but we still flat out suck abysmally at scouting and player development like no other. Why Matt Swanson ( our farm system director ) is still cashing a paycheck from this team is a abomination. Every damm prospect player in our system is a suspect ( 2016-2020 ) as far as I’m concerned until they prove otherwise. Your point about Oakland not being better than other teams at scouting and player development means you’re talking about either the Dodgers or Astros, not us. Joe Maddon is our highest paid baseball operations guy ( what does that say about AM? ), like having M Night Shyamalan as your director or executive producer over Martin Scorsese or Steven Spielberg.
I always thought that La Russa was only here because of the good work that Pujols put into Arte. Tony needed something to do so he would stay out of trouble. Then the dominoes fell, and Tony got fired, and a job in the Windy City, and took his problems there with him.
Don’t forget that Arte nixed the trade deal 15 months ago with the Dodgers that was supposed get us Joc Pederson and Ross Stripling. Arte meddles and directly handles all the big high profile signings, not the GM whoever that maybe! That’s why he’s never gonna hire someone who’s a experienced proven winner like Theo Epstein who’s BTW still under 50 too. He respects his field skippers ( Scioscia and Maddon more than his younger GM’s Reagins, Dipoto, Eppler, and now Minasian ( he’s 41 yrs old ). 💩 👎
As you and I have discussed on these threads before, the Angels are in the absolute worst place to be – i.e. the middle without players on the farm who can fill the holes. By being there, a team is not bad enough to obtain early and potentially transformational picks in the draft. And it is not good enough to make it to the promised land. The middle is the place that is the most difficult to escape from as a baseball team. You either need to tank (trade away your best players and hope the young talent you get in return and the draft picks you make end up being good – aka what the Houston Astros did) OR you need to spend a bunch of money to build a quality pitching staff and fill holes and then hope those FAs end up performing at a level justifying their salary.
The Angels may end up with a 10+ WAR player in Ohtani. Trout achieving say 7 WAR in a shortened season, Walsh emerging as a player, Stassi developing into one of the best catchers in the League, Upton finding his way as a leadoff hitter, Fletch with 2+ WAR and still not contend. That is the reality of a mediocre pitching staff. To escape the middle to move up to a playoff contender will require investing a lot of money in high quality starting and relief pitching and hoping that they perform to their prior levels.
The reality is that this team remains stuck in the middle which is similar to being stuck in the mud in Alabama. Anyone who has seen My Cousin Vinny knows that once you are stuck in that mud, you are going nowhere fast.
One problem is that I don’t even see many obvious candidates for mid-season trade – like the Astros swung with Verlander a few years ago. Who could one get (practicalities aside) that would come in and pitch better than Heaney or Bundy – for sure?
The names that have been floated – Marquez, Gray (either of them), MadBum, Scherzer, Boyd – all seem to have issues too.
Don’t have the prospects to make it happen anyway.
When was the last big trade they made anyway? Zack Greinke?
The answer is beat the bad teams, lose to the good teams, draft in the 12 to 15 range yearly, sign a few of the leftover FAs, and wash – rinse – repeat yearly.
Whut if yoo luuz tew bohth? 😜
Mr. Moreno advises everyone. That is the problem.
He won’t rebuild.
He won’t invest in the non-income generating parts of the team.
He sets some budget, after all of his investment to the team are calculated, there is not much left to build a team that at the end of the season maybe 25% complete.
There is no solution, Mr. Moreno won’t hear it.
Well, if he won he could charge more in advertising ( like that other team up the 5 FWY….maybe a extra $50M in revenue every year. ). More national exposure means more revenue. More exposure won’t happen unless you win. Cleveland Browns didn’t get on national TV until Baker Mayfield, meanwhile the New England Patriots were on national TV almost every week. He’s probably a eccentric owner who wants to control everything his own way no matter what happens.
So I’m not a Maddon apologist but wouldn’t most teams pull their starter around the 6th inning if not pitching lights out or have them on a short leash starting in the fifth? Isnt this the state of starting pitching in 2021. I know we want them to go longer especially when we keep seeing the same thing happen. Isn’t the real problem we put together a shitty bullpen that can’t be relied on to get to Iglesias in the 9th and get out of any inherited runner situation unscathed? Or am I being unfair that the relievers are all over used due now due to the starters being bad in April and May. Maddon isn’t winning us games but it sure seems it keeps coming down to pitching staff construction wvery year and players just not performing.
When your bullpen is as bad as ours, you don’t go to the pen so easily and frequently. Maddon sucks at pitching management.
Canning wasn’t having a bad day by any means. ERA was 3.6 and WHIP was 1.0 for the game. Those very solid numbers. With only 69 pitches thrown, pulling him was stupid. Granted, Tony Watson had been pretty good all year up until today but I still don’t like the decision.
If Maddon had Shields, Donnelly, KRod and Percival his strategy may have worked. But he doesn’t have anything close to that and therefore he likely needs to ride his starters longer.
Yesterday the excuse was Heaney tiring because of all the pitches he threw in the early innings. Today Canning was efficient and was only at 69 pitches. It shows he has an itchy trigger finger by the 6th. But he does not have the bullpen to back up that strategy.
No, most starting pitchers are allowed to go longer than 69 pitches.
Maddon has to play the cards he has, and the players have to perform when given the ball. If Maddon is expected to not use the cow pen, then release the whole lot.
My only issue with Maddon is why CRod has not gotten the ball.
C-Rod or Suarez.
He went to Suarez late. Why not bring him in in the 6th ?
Seeing thins now. Why I ask also.
Time to get rid of these loser pitchers. Time for Moreno to pull his head out of his butt and realize this team is going to suck until decent pitching is acquired.
And replace them with???
That is for them to figure out. Fans think Moreno spends a lot of money. He really doesn’t. He won’t go over the luxury tax ever, not even if it were to tremendously improve the team. The guy is a complete fake. I am sorry to say this but this team has never had a really good owner and that includes Gene Autry. Everyone in the organization made so many mistakes trying to get him a World Series ring because they thought it was his last year. Until we get the right people in this organization to fix the farm system and spend a ton of money on improving all aspects of the MLB roster then we are saddled with this garbage every season.
STOP BLOWING IT