LA Angels Wednesday News Crash: Skaggs Family vs Arte Finale

1 month ago

Reply to RexFregosi

The Verdict Form would have a simple question- Yes or no, did Defendant act with malice, fraud, or oppresion?

If yes, there would be a phase 2 of the trial for Plaintiff to put on evidence about how much money Defendant has before the Jury gets to pick a number.

This thing could go on for a while.

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to Charles Sutton

That’s really cool to know.

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Super Member

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

My money would be on oppression. (Despicable conduct in conscious disregard of Tyler’s rights)

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https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2025/12/angels-sign-angel-perdomo-huascar-ynoa.html#comments

1 month ago

Reply to Charles Sutton

I feel oppressed. Who can I sue?

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to Charles Sutton

Did not know that was the legal definition of oppression. Learning new things every minute here.

The angle is that Tyler’s ipad was damaged due to chopping up and snorting pills with Kay then being seized and examined by the feds. I can’t see any real malice or fraud there.

I can see that being considered despicable conduct. Are they saying Tyler had the right to expect oxy when he ordered oxy? Or that Tyler had a right to keep his property and have it function?

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HalosFanForLife

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

This whole thing could open a can of worms that will go beyond MLB. A friend of mine, his son, played for a prominent SEC school. He was pressured into taking Adderall. He declined and was outcast in a bullying way. He was the only pitcher not on it. He didn’t know about the position players – but knew a lot of them were on it too. The coach wanted him to go see “the Doctor” who is totally in the tank. I’ve heard stories of MLB teams actually getting guys off of it that come from college, so that’s a good thing. But these schools can hide behind HIPAA – as I don’t think they have to disclose.

Last edited 1 month ago by HalosFanForLife

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Angels2020Champs

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

Who chopped up the pill and made the iPad damaged? Tyler? So he damaged his own property after employment hours not doing work related things. I can see why they ran out of jurors on this thing. I can’t see why punitive damages would be awarded here. We know Kay provided the pill. Had Tyler taken it orally, he’d have much much greater chance on being alive.

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2pints

1 month ago

Reply to Angels2020Champs

I might be wrong, but I don’t think the ipad was damaged by Tyler doing drugs off it, but rather since it was part of the investigation into his death the police took it and have kept it. So the Skaggs family is using the loss of it as “property damages” so they can get punitive damages from the jury since those can only be awarded in conjunction with damaged property.

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Biggiswrth

1 month ago

More “stuff” to throw on the wall and see what sticks

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Turk's Teeth

1 month ago

Reply to Biggiswrth

And that’s just the stuff being reported on MLBTR.

Recent transaction log, MiLB free agents:

Gonzalez is probably the most interesting – 24, starter, respectable command and K rates. Probably a AAA placement.

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1 month ago

Reply to Turk's Teeth

I don’t see the point in Dunham. I can see how Walton might “break out” in his 30s and be a bench piece if the gods smile. But yeah, Gonzalez…. I like that WHIP plenty. Could maybe fill a back end spot with some meh innings that don’t piss us all off.

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SD19

1 month ago

Perry must have watched the movie Major League recently with his collection of cast offs and old guys. Next move will be to sign a closer from the California Penal League.

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bigviz

1 month ago

Reply to SD19

Well then I guess there’s only one thing left to do. Win the whole f’n thing.

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YOUknowulovetheIE

1 month ago

I always thought skaggs had a substance abuse issue. Whether it be alcohol or prescription drugs, in my 30 years of watching baseball I’ve never seen a pitcher sweat so much on cool nights, early in games, etc.

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Biggiswrth

1 month ago

Per MLB TradeRumors: The Guardians parted ways with Jhonkensy Noel yesterday, designating the outfielder for assignment
Is this Taylor Ward 2.0 and look to replace the power with a cheap alternative here?

Last edited 1 month ago by Biggiswrth

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cookmeister

1 month ago

Reply to Biggiswrth

there’s enough “taking a shot” guys on the roster already.

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steelgolf

1 month ago

Reply to cookmeister

Well,now there is more!

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1 month ago

Reply to steelgolf

That’s the best part. There is ALWAYS more!

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cookmeister

1 month ago

Reply to steelgolf

link doesnt work. Guessing it’s Perdomo and Ynao.

There’s a difference between those guys and a guy like Noel.

Perdomo an Ynao don’t require a roster spot. Sign everyone to a minor league deal, idc

Noel would require a roster spot. We have enough “taking a shot” guys taking roster spots already.

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Super Member

1 month ago

Reply to cookmeister

The internet is partially jacked up for the second day in a row.

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1 month ago

Reply to cookmeister

Noel makes sense for a ST invite. If he shows up looking ripped and crushes baseballs, lucky us. But he can be cut. Dude has power.

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red floyd

1 month ago

Reply to steelgolf

Correct link: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2025/12/angels-sign-angel-perdomo-huascar-ynoa.html

Last edited 1 month ago by red floyd

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1 month ago

Reply to cookmeister

Our roster should be ALL guys getting a shot. Our farm should be full of prospects we picked up in trades when we got rid of everything another team would take. Mike Trout should be marooned on an island with a bunch of confused looking 24 year olds and a couple bemused 32 year olds…. and his 35M a year. Rebirth, not retool.

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Biggiswrth

1 month ago

Reply to gitchogritchoffmypettis

We are adding a ton of “fringe” guys with high upside. Something has to work for once right?

I do wonder if Maddux will be able to “fix” any of this pitching.

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1 month ago

Reply to Biggiswrth

It’s like refining a mountain of tailings to get an once of gold. So probably not, and if so, it’ll be one guy, maybe two. But there’s value in trying since we are not reloaded enough to play meaningful late season games.

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Biggiswrth

1 month ago

Reply to gitchogritchoffmypettis

I agree. If we find one piece of the puzzle for the future then this is worth it.
I still feel like the floor has been increased again, but to reach the ceiling on this team we will need 40 ft scaffolding.

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1 month ago

Reply to Biggiswrth

My dad literally owns a wooden grove ladder from the 1920s with rusty ass metal parts. It looks like wood from a shipwreck and it’s wobbly as hell.

People talking about this roster reaching any kind of ceiling reminds me of when I see him get that thing out totally intending to climb up it.

We gotta just accept we suck, that we will continue to suck, that we need to slowly climb higher, and that will involve stacking up lots of things that won’t work. Get a little higher, then a little more. But it’s gonna involve a lot of innings and at bats going to filler and flyers that don’t work out.

I don’t think “real halo fan” has that in him. He’s basically a Yankee fan but far less cool. And sense the Angels never have been nor will be the Yankees, more miserable.

Draft some position players.
Develop some kids.
Have a higher OBP.
Have a lower WHIP.

That’s all I want this year. Even if we still finish last.

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Fansince1971

1 month ago

Reply to gitchogritchoffmypettis

Amen

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to gitchogritchoffmypettis

Oddly this is what “real halo fan” should want. That is if he/she has a grip on reality.

Option 1: rinse and repeat with patchwork veterans and lose 90ish games.

Option 2: let some young guys see if they can hack it and lose 90ish games. Some will, some won’t, but the ones who do can stick around and help out in the future so you can stop losing 90ish games.

However, most fans just want to win and take the family to a couple games a year that are fun.

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steelgolf

1 month ago

It’s 7:48 am…….. Do you know where your Thursday Links are?

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Giants cut loose Joey Weimer and I’d snag him if I was Perry. Kid put up 0.4 WAR in only 27 games last year. His bat is sub par but still leaps better than Teodosio, who we could stash in AAA for depth.

Weimer would be the 4th outfielder, not a starter. But when you have roster space and the kid costs minimum wage why not take the minor improvement?

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steelgolf

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

It a bad idea.

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FungoAle

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

Tyler Wade v2.0

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MarineLayer

1 month ago

Reply to FungoAle

Wiemer was once a top prospect. I think he’s worth a flyer. We’ve got no depth at a fielding type OF right now.

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FungoAle

1 month ago

Reply to MarineLayer

We are rebranding into becoming The Los Angeles Flyers

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red floyd

1 month ago

Reply to FungoAle

Isn’t there already an OC Flyers?

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cookmeister

1 month ago

Reply to FungoAle

Odd comparison. He’s not like Wade in any fashion

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FungoAle

1 month ago

Reply to cookmeister

Yeah, my mistake. I was thinking of Joey Wendle.

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1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

As far as the “improve our bench/make SLC great again plan he’d be a good pick up. I liked him as a prospect, he just hasn’t sussed out in the MLB. But he’s the type of flyer I’d take. He’ll at least be a depth piece, and if he suddenly puts it all together he’ll be pretty good.

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grichmanpoorman

1 month ago

Anyone opined on this yet? MLB mocks toolsy Texas OF Sawyer Strosnider (say that fast three times) to us at No. 12 in the 2026 draft. https://www.mlb.com/angels/news/first-full-2026-mlb-mock-draft?t=mlb-draft-coverage

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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=auLBLk4ibAk&list=RDauLBLk4ibAk&start_radio=1&pp=ygUPdG9tIHNhd3llciBydXNooAcB

1 month ago

Reply to grichmanpoorman

I’d take him. There are plenty of position players I’d be into at 12.

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BannedInLA

1 month ago

Reply to grichmanpoorman

His walk up music;

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to grichmanpoorman

I linked this on Friday and not a single comment.

A polished college player at a position of need is a good bet for the Angels and Sawyer looks solid from what little I know.

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Eric_in_Portland

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

I saw the mlb dot com thing the other day. One thing we’ve learned is that Perry has a very unique way of looking at draft targets. Even if Strosnider is available when we pick Perry’s attention will be elsewhere

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MarineLayer

1 month ago

Reply to Eric_in_Portland

I think he looks like a better prospect than the pitcher Minasian picked at 2 this year. Hopefully we will have someone new making next year’s pick.

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grichmanpoorman

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

I think we’re all in the mood for a bat…

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RexFregosi

1 month ago

Reply to grichmanpoorman

When I looked at Moch12s, I saw a couple of college OFs and he was one of them.

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Fansince1971

1 month ago

We talk a lot about predictions and over/unders around here. So how about another one:

Over/Under on amount jury will award including punitive damages. I’ll set it at $50m.

If you think there will be a defense verdict you obviously vote “under”.

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

It’s California. Arte has never made it a secret which way he leans politically. I’m expecting a message to be delivered by the jury.

Over – in the 9 digits.

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red floyd

1 month ago

Reply to Senator_John_Blutarsky

But this is the OC. That’s solid red.

Last edited 1 month ago by red floyd

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

It all hinges on whether or not the Skaggs side can get punitive damages and I think that part of their case is a huge reach.

So I’m going under but not by a ton.

This is a great question, by the way.

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Fansince1971

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

Thanks. I’m taking the over. I’m guessing a verdict on n the $150m range.

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https://x.com/i/status/2001349593259450491

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

This is the land of billion dollar pain and suffering awards…. juries love to stick it to the man and hate to think. As in do they really think THE MAN isn’t passing that cost on?

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2pints

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

way under

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Eric_in_Portland

1 month ago

Reply to 2pints

I’m with you, 2

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FungoAle

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

Skaggs’s family thinks Tyler would have been able to cash in on a fat contract deal given his pitching prowess. But what is now apparent, Tyler, before his Angel days, was more into getting high than his profession. Nothing more than a 4-5 starter, at best. As much as a dislike Angel ownership, I’m hopeful Rusty Hardin shoots a blank.

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Biggiswrth

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

I think the under. There is too much on the plaintif side to cause the % of blame on the Angels to make the payment that big. So my guess is the Angels are 25% at fault and they settle on $25 million.

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Kevin

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

I haven’t watched the trial in detail. The verdict should come down to how good a job the Angels’ attorneys did. Skaggs was a pitcher who apparently was known for being a partier, had prior injury problems, basically washed out with the DBacks, came back to Anaheim, pitched decently here, and then the sad ending happened. As a framework, it is utterly unknown if Skaggs would have been effective as a pitcher even a year or two afterward. The injuries, any substance abuse, etc. militate against it. Not to mention any potential MLB suspensions due to his conduct.

As to punitive damages, there would need to be a heightened finding by clear and convincing evidence of willful, malicious type conduct. Juries can do anything, but it’s hard to see that standard being met. Also, Skaggs’ conduct factors in as to the percentage of fault. He should likely bear a fair percentage of fault.

The under makes more sense logically for any verdict. Of course, juries aren’t always logical and by sitting in the courtroom you could get a better sense of everything. We can only guess.

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Fansince1971

1 month ago

Reply to Kevin

Agree. This is just fun guessing

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milehigh

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

I could see this going one of two ways. One would be a 50/50 split and go home for the holidays. You can haggle blame and what if’s forever. People want to go home, do the right thing, but go home will eventually rule.

The other way would be something like 80/20. To me the most damaging testimony was the Angel VP who said that MLB was contacted about Kay. If there was ever a “yeah we knew and didn’t follow through on what we knew” moment, that was it for me.

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Pineapple12

1 month ago

What is Perry cooking?

Perry Minasian on adding players with some risk: “We won 73 games, right? So we need upside and to be able to add what we’ve added so far, spending limited dollars, we have a lot of holes, and we need to fill those holes. And we still have opportunity to do a lot of things.”

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to Pineapple12

I wonder if he’s still counting the 15 wins associated with Washington………

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Pineapple12

1 month ago

Reply to Senator_John_Blutarsky

That darn quadruple bypass kept the Wash 15 WAR from hitting 💔

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Fansince1971

1 month ago

Reply to Pineapple12

So the team would have lost 114 games in 2024 without Washington? 😂

Just Pineapple Poppycock…..😎

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Pineapple12

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

Jeez, I cannot win around here lol. Senator obviously trolled me so I played along.

Fwiw, I believe we would’ve won at least a few more games if Wash coached all 162. Montgomery was a downgrade.

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to Pineapple12

I’m just having a bit of fun jousting with our resident optimist……

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Fansince1971

1 month ago

Reply to Pineapple12

I mean you can say it and believe. I completely disagree. But we will never know.

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to Senator_John_Blutarsky

We also have the wins that we were supposed to get by firing Soth, then Ausmus, plus adding Maddon that have been stockpiled so we can cash them in for an extra 20 or so wins when we are a 75 win team who wants a play off spot.

Those a real right? Halo’s Heaven was all about those wins….

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BannedInLA

1 month ago

Reply to gitchogritchoffmypettis

Fuzzy math. Just give me better players. Problem solved. I’m a genius.

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RexFregosi

1 month ago

Reply to Pineapple12

more Angel math:
73 games + “what we’ve added so far”
so far, it’s the same lineup minus Ward, Giffy, Moncada

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steelgolf

1 month ago

Reply to RexFregosi

Plus, they really think Trout will play an entire season in the field ! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Which is why “The Breeze maker” Soler is still on the roster.

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Pineapple12

1 month ago

Reply to steelgolf

Trout injured himself last season stepping on 1st base. Who cares if he DHs or plays the field at this point? I’ll always love Trout, but it’s over

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steelgolf

1 month ago

Reply to Pineapple12

I like Trout too. But now I like him as a DH. He can maybe make 20 starts in the field due to another players injury, but that should be it. Soler should never see the field.

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to Pineapple12

THIS is why his new strategy is to avoid running to first. Walk? Sure. Trot? Fine. RUN? nope.

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steelgolf

1 month ago

Reply to gitchogritchoffmypettis

So, he will be doing the “Albert” to first?

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to steelgolf

Soler isn’t going anywhere we just have to pray his back is healed and he’s his normal self.

But assuming that best case scenario, that still leaves 3 guys who should only play RF and Trout should only be out there occasionally. One of Trout or Soler should DH.

This is just horrible roster construction on Perry’s part.

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steelgolf

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

Which is why I unloaded one dimensional Soler in my IIWPM piece. Eat the money.

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to steelgolf

And why I keep saying to trade Adell. At this point the Trout/Soler grave has been dug and Adell is 2 years from free agency. 1 if there’s a lockout.

But you did inspire me. The A’s want to unload Severino who pitched pretty well outside of Sacramento. Him and Soler have a similar grades on the sim.

I would do it. Essentially adds $4 million to this year’s payroll to solidify the rotation while adding $17 million next year if there is one.

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toad2065

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

Why in the world would the A’s want Soler?

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to toad2065

Nobody really wants Soler but this would save them $21 million and rid them of a disgruntled player.

They’d probably laugh at us, but it was a fun little academic exercise.

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steelgolf

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

At least Severino would be useful to this team.

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jco

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

That would be remarkable, but won’t happen. In addition to the value problem, between Kurtz, Rooker, and Butler, there’s nowhere to play Soler for them. It would create the same roster problem we have.

i assume that Adell will probably move to LF, but it could be Soler/Trout.

my problem with trading Adell is that he’s the only player we really have who should be a starting corner OF on a major league team. (Trout should be a DH at this point).

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to jco

The most likely arrangement is Trout in LF, Rada in CF, and Adell in RF with Soler as the DH.

We’ve seen Adell in LF and it was brutal. So Trout will get to run around more and get hurt again.

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1 month ago

Reply to RexFregosi

Perry is delusional.

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to Senator_John_Blutarsky

Perry is doing his jobtional. I’m still waiting for guys like you to point me in the direction of all the times POBOHERO came out and said “This team’s gonna fking blow. We have nine second baseman and six slow left fielders with no pitching and no money.”

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to gitchogritchoffmypettis

POBOHERO? You’ve got me confused with someone else. All I’ve advocated for is competence in our baseball operations. After 5 years of Perry in the GM role, the results could not be considered anything other than a failure.

As for the statement on X – so Perry’s only choice is to make absurd statements that reflect him being out of touch with his roster?

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to Senator_John_Blutarsky

Yes. Stupid statements like that are indeed his and every other FOs only option whether they are realistic or not. It’s part of his job. Unless you have been seeing other FO guys coming out and speaking the truth no matter what. I sure haven’t.

GM/POBO/VPOPP what ever title a guy has, if he works for a bad owner or org, he’s basically a bullet catcher for ownership. I know you’re not stupid. You know this. So why mince around with all the “oh. my. gawd. Perry is like, sooooo delusional!” bullshit?

Even if he were the genius that he isn’t he’d still have to make these stupid statements about a roster he knows isn’t very good.

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Eric_in_Portland

1 month ago

Reply to Pineapple12

Assuming this is an accurate recent quote it worries me that Perry doesn’t know how many we won in 2025.

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MarineLayer

1 month ago

The bullpen signings make sense because Loup and Tepera apparently aren’t available.

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steelgolf

1 month ago

Reply to MarineLayer

😆

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

The Mets clearly have a bigger fetish for former Yankees than Arte:

Luke Weaver heading across town, joining Juan Soto and Devin Williams.

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Pineapple12

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

Another overpay for a reliever

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Those jurors have been on that trial for months and the holidays start next week. I’d think there would be a desire to get this thing wrapped up this week and get on with their lives.

Will be interesting to see what they decide. Obviously none of us know everything they know but I think we all have some idea how we’d lean.

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2pints

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

$2.5 billion judgement for the plaintiffs, making Arte give the franchise to the Skaggs family. What could go wrong???

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to 2pints

Unlike Arte, Skaggs mom has run a winning program and won a championship.

You might be onto something here, ha ha.

Last edited 1 month ago by Jeff Joiner

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Super Member

1 month ago

Reply to Jeff Joiner

Lots of judges take off that week between Christmas and New Years Day.

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Pineapple12

1 month ago

Phillies sign Brad Keller to 2 years, $22 million. The relief market is mad expensive. I have no issues with Pomeranz or Romano at their price points.

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Fansince1971

1 month ago

Reply to Pineapple12

2025 Pomeranz or three seasons 2022-2024 when he did not pitch in MLB due to injury?

Last edited 1 month ago by Fansince1971

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toad2065

1 month ago

Reply to Fansince1971

He and Stephenson make a helluva tag team!

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Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to toad2065

They can mentor Joyce.

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RexFregosi

1 month ago

after three years of watching what the NBA does with the NBA Cup (an in-season ‘tournament’), though I am old and completely embrace and hold fast the traditions of baseball, I’d be completely fine with MLB doing something similar at the end of May.

Seed the teams according to geography like West Coast teams play each other random series in late April/May that not only count in the standings, but also as tournament play. Regional winners (four) play for the MLB Cup, a tournament championship Memorial Day weekend in St. Louis.

Yes, I’d be OK with this – add some juice to the early season.

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Pineapple12

1 month ago

Reply to RexFregosi

This year’s NBA Cup was fantastic! +1 on adding something similar to the MLB season. 162 can really drag — would be cool to add something new before the ASG

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toad2065

1 month ago

Reply to RexFregosi

👎

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Kevin

1 month ago

How is signing two old guys that aren’t good for $6 million a better idea than bringing back Kenley or making other moves? I don’t get it.

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to Kevin

Remember, the plot isn’t to win, it’s just to stay competitive enough to sell tickets while spending the least amount of money.

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Cowboy26

1 month ago

Reply to Senator_John_Blutarsky

Then they need to fire the script writers because their last 12 pictures have been abysmal failures.

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AnAngelsFan

1 month ago

Reply to Kevin

Neither Kenley Jansen for a year at twice the cost nor Drew Pomeranz is going to make this team competitive. And honestly, looking at last year’s stats, do you think there is much of a difference between these two players:

178 ERA+, 3.36 FIP, 1.067 WHIP, 3.80 SO/BB
165 ERA+, 3.98 FIP, 0.949 WHIP, 3.00 SO/BB

By the way, those numbers are Kenley Jansen’s best numbers since 202. It’s unlikely he’ll be as good this year as he was last year. Not to mention Jansen is the oldest of the 3 guys…

FYI – Jansen is the bottom line, better WHIP but overall worse than one-year younger Pomeranz last year.

Last edited 1 month ago by AnAngelsFan

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Legend

1 month ago

Reply to AnAngelsFan

There’s also very little pressure from fan-idiot and Gubi to pitch Drew Pomeranz. They can be flexible working in young arms at various spots if any young arms decide not to suck.

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Kevin

1 month ago

Reply to AnAngelsFan

When Kenley pitched, you basically knew they were going to win and he came in during all types of hard situations including pitching multiple days in a row. Pomerantz is a spot lefty who might stink. It’s apples and oranges. It’s like losing a guy better than Rengifo and saying we brought in Kingery and Wade who were both wash outs here before. You had a clear MLB guy who could do the job and cashed him in for two question marks.

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steelgolf

1 month ago

Reply to Kevin

To help put this in perspective: The Angels have drafted 55 pitchers from the 2020 draft through the 2024 draft. And they are relegated to signing these two guys. Yeeeeesh.

Last edited 1 month ago by steelgolf

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Super Member

RexFregosi

1 month ago

Reply to Kevin

Simply Angel math:

two 8-7 guys are always better than one 16-14 guy.

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Super Member

BannedInLA

1 month ago

Reply to Kevin

Concur.

I’m now firmly in the “burn it all down & start over” camp but, if you’re going to spend money, I’d prefer to have one proven player (Kikuchi) versus an assortment of hot garbage.

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Legend

Jeff Joiner

1 month ago

Reply to BannedInLA

Off topic, but I’m seriously in mourning over Terence Crawford’s retirement.

He’s quite possibly my all time favorite. Saw him live 3 times including his destruction of Spence.

Need to find a new favorite guy now. Monster Inoue is probably that guy. Seen him live a couple of times and met his brother.

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