Perry Minasian talks about the state of the Angels to a certain extent. Joe Maddon provides counterpoint.
Corey Knebel went on the 60 day injured list with a torn capsule in his shoulder. Yasmani Grandal has a knee injury that will keep him out of commission for a while. Yordan Alvarez has a shortness of breath issue that apparently has no discernible cause. Joey Votto didn’t know he was hurt. He just thought he stunk. Wander Franco was pulled from his rehab assignment due to continued hand soreness.
Speaking of hand soreness, Joe Musgrove barehanded a ball hit back to him on the pitchers mound and apparently got away with it. It probably would have taken the hand off of an Angels pitcher.
The Dodgers released Pedro Baez, who is apparently a rather terrible pitcher. Josh Hader is not adapting well to his new Padres uniform and lost his gig as the closer, at least for a while.
Albert Pujols says he is going to retire after this season even if he doesn’t make it to number 700.
Photo credit: Rex Fregosi
Maddon is not Perry’s guy. I wasn’t surprised they didn’t see eye-to-eye. I wonder what Maddon is referring to re: “foundational stuff”. Sounds to me more Arte than Perry. But the “put un a uni and talk to these players in the dugout instead” was a clear shot to Perry.
Now that Perry will have full control of hiring the next HC (assuming he also doesn’t get canned. I hope he does not), I wonder who he will hire – a young upstart? A retread? Joe Girardi? I’m curious kind like how I was curious who JeDi would have hired as the Angels manager had he been given the chance.
I have no idea who would fit this bill, but I’d just enjoy it if he finds some 75 year old guy who’s full of charm and wisdom…. who also likes analytics. That would be fun. Like Connie Mack with a tablet.
How much you want to bet he hires a guy from the Braves like Eddie Perez?
Just as long as we don’t try to hire Eddie Gaedel.
What about Eddie Munster?
Why? The dude’s an on base machine!
I won’t be surprised. Braves are doing well right now and I assume he knows a lot of those guys well. So he wouldn’t be starting from scratch, so to speak.
I forget – was Bruce Bochy into analytics? I know there’s a contingent who wants him. Personally, I would rather a young upstart. But Dusty Baker proved that old dogs still has new tricks.
And so far, Showalter has Bucked the trend too.
I like Bochy… thing is, he could be a lot like Maddon, only more successful in the past and less cutesy. I never heard anything about him not liking the numbers… but he also left pretty fast after Zaidi came in and he was replaced with Gabe “Droid” Kapler… so
I’m a Bochy fan but have no idea re his use of analytics.
Already marking down a loss for tonight….see you tomorrow.
Yesterday I corrected when I wondered why Ohtani pitched when he was sick and was told it happened during the game.
I repeat my question.
Because feeling under the weather for Shohei is not an excuse to sit and miss a turn. Some other “Super Stars” would have taken multi days off for the same way Shohei felt. Many players have felt under the weather and gone out to pitch or hit the lights out. For some it is a fear of losing your position, for others it is the love of the game along with testing oneself. Think of all the players in the past that played in long streaks like Billy Williams, Steve Garvey, Lou what’s his name, or some guy who was a SS in Baltimore. 😀
They played a lot with sickness and through injuries, taking a day off was not an option to them. Gehrig and Garvey played on winners, Ripken played on both winners and losers, but Billy was hardly ever on a winning team which probably is harder to show up every day.
To see if the internet would break down if Shohei puked on the mound like Bundy did last year in NYC? 🤮
Now we will just have to wait for another opportunity to find out.
Ippei was walking around like a proud papa.
Man. I love Joey Votto, even if he is past it.
Though watch, he’ll “change” again when he comes back and hit .500 with two strike outs on the season.
Agreed. A guy who will tell it like it is about himself, even if it’s bad is a guy you can like.
I continue to be surprised at how bitter Joe Maddon comes off regarding analytics and working with the FO as a partner, etc. I mean, he did it, and made his bones by doing it, in Tampa Bay. And that was with Andrew Freidman before he became ANDREW FREIDMAN.
It sounds like a lot of the organizational infrastructure he deems missing isn’t the same infrastructure a lot of us think is missing… we want moar scouts and moar analysis being given to players we assume want moar tools. This would, naturally, lead to moar nerds having moar input into line up decisions. But Joe just comes off as a bitter old man who was annoyed at having to talk to his boss so often. More problems with PTP than Arte. It’s not like he has to be careful not to glance some criticism off Arte, he’s established enough he’d still get work if he wants it.
This is, again, not really how I thought he worked all these years, though it does make the rumblings I used to hear that the egg heads in the Cubs org weren’t high on him, even as they won the championship, make more sense.
He’s right about the fundamental/developmental stuff through out the system though. Gotta get that… maybe we are at this point, we’ll see as more players grow past A Ball.
Was Maddon really just a crotchety old man stuck in 2005 baseball who we thought was different because he wears goofy clothes and tells us to turn Freedom Rock up? It’s just surprising that which old men (like Francona and Baker) have managed to embrace modern FOs and which don’t pull it off. Like Mike Schilt…. I was surprised a “Cardinals Man” had such big issues with the FO meddling.
Exactly, professor of the modern day PBO, Friedman, calling the shots. He had no issue being a celebrity Manager back then.
One of the reasons I wasn’t super keen on Maddon even way back when many wanted him to replace Soth 4 years before we got rid of Soth was that, being from a town with both a big University and a punk scene, he reminded me too much of a guy with “post cred disease”.
This is a totally baseless sense that he just gave me, but it seemed like, even in his last years with the Rays, he’d gained recognition for being “outside the box” which kind of broke the spell and made him into “outside the box guy” collecting attention for being outside the box instead of actually doing anything that was still innovative. Like professors I knew who had published an important book seven years ago, or guys in the music scene who got a little praise and didn’t become jerks, but they just sort of milked that praise and stopped really pushing themselves.
That was late stage Maddon. Always looking for something new and zanny to quote or wear or say to a reporter… but kind of sucking as an actual field manager. An empty bag of useless character.
Also…..Winning a Championship goes a long way with any coach/manager
Yeah, but I mean even before he went to Chicago….
Hey Joe. Why don’t you do us all a favor and….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2q2JRAkfJw
I am aware that everyone has a difference of opinion on how the team should play out the last 5 weeks here. Not all agree with me that we need to play the “Yuts” and forget about W-L record. I do not really believe that we have a shot at the lotto, to many bad teams a head of us. But it is time to rebuild. This team really has no core, no group to build around except in starting pitching. It’s too bad that MNT has aged so fast and is injury prone for whatever reason, but that is the truth of the matter. Rendon has not proved to be another Beltre and play into his late 30’s healthy. The bottom line is I believe that just plugging holes with backup players won’t work and it’s time to face the facts, we need to jettison the now for the future or we will never win again in my lifetime. It is hard to lose our favorite players for prospects that may not work out, but if they do work out, we are going to be OK.
We all wish that Arte would up the payroll, but what good is that going to do if the teams can’t take care of development and scouting? Changing managers is not the answer either. The Angels have their backs to the wall here, and it is time to think about and see the future and not just next season.
I’ve been in the “play the utes” camp since before the trade deadline. Unfortunately weird injuries to Adell and Moniak kind of nixed that on the grass for us.
I mostly agree. The main issue is that, while I really do think the farm’s better than in past years, most of the kids we’d like a look at are a little too far away to be expected to come up to the MLB this next month.
Yep. To be clear the utes I wanted to play were really Adell and Moniak just to give them the consistent playing time I think is really needed for evaluation.
I’d also give Janson Junk a couple more starts. I don’t think I like him as starter but I’d love to have a couple of relievers who can go a few innings out of the bullpen.
Agree, the AA pitchers are not exactly ready to step in. Looking more human lately, it will take time for them to become reliable, if at all. I would use anything at my disposal, farm kids, bobble heads, blow it up, etc to avoid running it back and trend sideways for another couple of years.
Again, I think Joe provides tremendous insight to us regarding what is truly going on. The comment that the management should suit up and be in the dugout due to the desire to control things that typically the field manager would handle. The hyper-focus on analytics. The lack of a ‘foundation’ which I take to mean scouting/player development/strength and conditioning. The belief that it’s the manager’s sole fault if players aren’t performing. All of these issues have been discussed on this site at one time or another.
The Angels don’t have a foundation because their owner does not believe in spending money on one. Great scouting, player development, minor league conditions and strength and conditioning cost money – people at the top of their field cost money. Arte wants the shiny objects that bring fans to the stadium and sells overpriced food and beer. A foundation is too amorphous to have a direct marketing impact – most fans don’t buy tickets because they like how a team is run.
I’m sad to say it’s not going to change. I appreciate Joe’s honesty and insight. It’s an insider’s view which confirms what many of us have been routinely saying on this site.
The best thing about a guy (Maddon) bitching about a vague “foundation” is that we can all just fill in that blank. Sure, the foundation I want is player development, both pro and prospect scouting, and conditioning guys….
But did it really seem like that was what Maddon was asking for? It seemed more like he was just saying “Buy me a World Series roster like the Cubs did. If you don’t, don’t blame me and my coaches when the players we have don’t play well.” Which begs the question, WTF do we need a manager and coaches for then? To arrange slumber parties and fill out a line up?
I agree with your point re the vagueness of ‘foundation’. But I don’t think it’s that much of a stretch to hear that as being a lack of scouting and development of players. I mean what else is foundational to a baseball organization? In my mind the farm system and minor league system (and therefore scouting and player development) is the foundation of any good baseball organization.
Could Maddon be referencing some other – “foundational issue” – sure although I have trouble thinking what that might be. I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to interpret his vague words as discussed.
“Buy me 15 All-Stars.” Sounds pretty foundational to me. It also fits Maddon.
Do we really think he was on the golf course, or at a hip brunch spot, maybe having a craft beer at a yuppie brewery at noon on a game day worrying about the lack of scouting the Angels have in the Carolina League? As for training and conditioning, how about we rip off the guy from the Braves championship team last year? Oh wait. We did that.
I think Joe was just saying PTP didn’t buy him the players, then tried to tell him what to do with the players he did have, and that pissed him off, but not as much as getting fired pissed him off.
another way to look at would it what Arte past ways of overspending on hitting, GMs lineup cards, poor development/evaluation/player diversity in floor/ceiling. It’s been bland list of prospects. Usually guys older with raw talent/athleticism and lack of polish. It needs to be a wider mix, and better grooming of players. The lineup cards are darn right laughable. So yeah that’s how I view their foundation
Brilliant! More slumber parties. I like it Gitch! It could be the answer to everything. This kind of out-of-the-box thinking is what we need lots more of. I will start making the popcorn. Who wants to be in charge of movies?
What’s new about it? Nothing he said opened my eyes.
Joe is coming off like a stalker, jilted GF. He is sore he got the ax. Understood, it hurts. But he knew what he was signing up for and the organizational structure. He was hand picked by Arte. It’s a bad look, Joe.
Yeah. I loved the “If you think you can do the job then put on a uni and come on down to the dugout and do it kid boy.” jab.
PTP, who is half his age, will quietly hire a guy who will put on a uni, head down to the dugout, and work with the FO on roster and line up construction. Zoms Wow!
What is the right amount of influence of analytics on running a major league team on a daily basis? Older talent with winning histories feel that there is still the “Old School” way of being a benefit to making discissions and the younger more accepting crowd whole heartedly believe in the math all the way. How much daily control should a General Manager have in running a team?
Sosh did not adjust, and he was gone, Maddon did not adjust and was gone, Girardi did not adjust and was gone, Tony in Chicago is not adjusting well and will be gone. Baker and Roberts have stacked teams, so hard to determine how much Baker and Roberts add to the success to their teams on the field on a daily basis.
I was, right or wrong, who thought that removing Joe at the time was a good idea, as his daily theory of resting players and creating a hodge podge of daily line-ups based on feel was hurting the team. In retrospect I still think that it was just not right. The Angels were going to not play up to capabilities no matter who ran the team and it did not change a thing changing managers.
I give this season to PTP for trying hard with what he had and then as is trAdition with this team, IjUrIeS. Three lessons learned this season. One, signing Free Agents that cost the team draft choices should not be made on players that haven’t played in 2 years. Lesson 2, need to spend a little bit more on bench player’s, especially guys capable of playing CF and 3B. Platoon at 1B. Although a #4 could be to find new catchers too.
Phil Collins sang “One more night”, for PTP change it to “One more year”.
I hate analytics, it’s ruined the game
I mostly agree with you. I still chuckle at the “Oh mah gawd! We gave up a round 2 draft pick for a solid starting pitcher! The agony!” thing that’s taken hold the last couple months. For years and years all we did was complain about not having #1 picks because of FA signings and refer to #2 picks as if they were worthless trash. We also constantly bitch for moar pidjing…. which is what Thor was… we just wanted other moar pidjing (Maaaaxxxxx!)
Giving up money and a round 2 pick to possibly get a good starter, only to get stuck with a slightly above average starter, is the type of “failure” and risk we will probably need to get accustomed to at some point since that’s kind of what good GMs do. CtPG = Shitty girlfriend.
I liked the idea of more pitching and was inspired by Thor’s enthusiasm to boot. But with the lock out situation and the market not being settled just yet, PTP did jump on signing Thor quickly as to not lose out and the agreed price of 21 million seemed a tad high for a pitcher who worked 5 innings in two years and coming off of TJS as well. At the time I was not a fan of the signing and became a fan when Thor started out well. Lorenzen looked like a fair signing for a local boy at the start of the season too.
The Thor signing was the most questionable move I saw Perry do. I didn’t like it then, and don’t like it now. Too much for a guy who hardly had pitched. We shouldn’t have given up a draft pick on a 1 year deal. If you are going to burn a draft pick, do it on a star you sign for $100M.
Of course, if he didn’t sign Thor, who would it have been. I admit that some of the other non-QO FA pitchers didn’t exactly end up having great seasons either.
I liked the Thor signing more than the Iglesias signing.
It looked to me like an audition for a longer term deal. Thor was happy to be here and in a six man rotation. He was overpaid early, but had the team played better would have made a nice extension candidate.
But If we re-sign him next year can we get our draft pick back?
I bet we could just go get you Joe Gatto right now…..
I liked the Thor signing, I thought it was a decent risk given the possible upside and I really liked the one year signing at 21 million instead of 3 years at 50 million. That Thor was a little better than a average starter works for me given last year when we were really hoping to have a little better than average starter instead of the batting practice pitchers we used last year. We have to get off the firing the GM every 2 or 3 years and give the GM the time to put is stamp on the team, to build up the entire organization from bottom to top. I don’t know if Perry is the answer yet, but he has not had enough time to find out. I think we need 4 or 5 years to get a decent read on a GM give his drafts a chance to work through the minor leagues and see exactly what we have.
As far as tanking for the number one, I took a look at all the number one draft picks since 2000
Figure anyone drafted 2018 and later has not had enough time to make an impact in the majors yet.
Royce Lewis – had a strong debut for the Twins had surgery on knee
Mickey Moiak – Undetermined
Danby Swason – 12.6 WAR looking pretty good for the Braves
Brady Aiken – Left baseball 2019
Mark Appel – Left baseball 2018
Carlos Correa – 36.4 War above average SS
Gerrit Cole – 33.5 #1 Starter
Bryce Harper – 42.6 Two MVP awards
Steven Strasburg – 32.3 #1 or 2 starter most likely finished at this point
Tim Beckham – In AAA
David Price – 39.5 Above average picture for a few years
Luke Hochevar – Average bullpen piece
Justin Upton – 32.3 War, average player injury prone
Matt Bush – Average bullpen piece
Delmon Young – Had one very good season
Bryan Bullington – Ended up playing in Japan
Joe Mauer – 55.2 borderline HOFer
Adrean Gonzalez – 43.5 a better than average player
So it appears to me the change of getting an above league average player, MVP or borderline HOFer picking in the number one spot is about 8 out 18, I’ll take those odds. And this is not counting Danby Swason who is already above league average player or Royce Lewis who in a limited appearance this year looked pretty good. If those two pan out then the odds go up to 10 out of 18.
Mauer walks into the HOF. Face of a franchise, MVP, tons of other awards.
Anyway, it isn’t really just the top pick that is valuable nowadays it is the money that goes with the picks. The Orioles had nearly $17 million to spend in the ! spot. The Nationals sitting at 6 had $11 million.
The Angels, drafting at 13, had a hair over $7 million.
The more money you have the more flexibility. Sign that safe college arm first, overpay the toolsy high school kid to skip college, etc. Or do what the Rangers did and go big for two kids.
I’m a little more infatuated with the money than the draft position.
The so called experts that I seen say that Mauer is a borderline HOF, I agree he was the best hitting catcher I have seen and feel that he should be in the HOF.
Looking at the money for the draft is a good way to approach things, that I had not really considered.
But more importantly, it would give us the opportunity to draft the next Phil Nevin.
Unfortunately with this year’s advent of the Draft Lottery your analysis to support tanking becomes largely academic.
I would assume that if you have the worstest record you would get more in the Lottery so you still have a decent chance to get the top pick.
Well since everyone says ASSuming is bad, here are the latest odds for each team’s draft position next year: https://www.tankathon.com/mlb/pick_odds
Perry talking about the Angels to the media…..
I missed it, what did he lie about? He was very noncommittal, but other than starting pitching, there is nothing that good to talk about.
Perry was definitely snake bit this season. Injuries to Trout, Rendon and Fletcher along with Ward. Duffy going down and last year’s sub squad not doing anything close to last year. Very unexpected Bullpen melt down. Not one, I mean not one non pitcher had a better season than last year except Trout and Ward.
If Perry chokes the chicken next year he will be gone, which will still not be his fault completely. Give him the benefit of the doubt before laying this whole season on him.
So will the chicken.
He received 3.5 Pinocchios for what were exaggerations regarding the state of the team.
As for injuries: every team gets them, and it’s his job to “adapt and overcome”. Honestly, why would anyone expect Trout and Rendon to be healthy when they haven’t been healthy over the past two seasons? As for the bullpen: Perry signed Loup and Tepera, so the judgment on their ability to perform is his. Same with Thor. He also owns canning Maddon and giving us Nevin.
The job of the GM is to own all the bad and heap anything good that happens on the players. Perry knew what he was getting into when he accepted Arte’s job offer. I do agree that the final grade on his tenure will be based largely on what comes from the 2021 – 2024 drafts, he’s toting a “C- / D+” thus far.
Just my opinions. Have a good day!
First off, I was one that truly believed that Trout would have a big year and play in 145 games. Ohtani would be better with the bat. Rendon would be a somewhat healthier. Marsh and Fletcher would rock. Loup and Tepera coming off good years would be a whole lot better. I truly believed that the injury bug might not hurt as so badly again. Looks like I was fooled again. Yes, in the long and short of it the GM is the one blamed after the manager, and Perry will be held accountable. Perry really has one more shot at this.
Too early to really grade PTP’s draft record really. I’m not as harsh as you right now on the drafts, but it does look as though there was much more work put into addressing needs than in the past.
And thank you, I believe I will have a good day and the same back to you! 😎
Adapt and overcome seems a bit simplistic to me.
He used budget to prop up a badly performing starting rotation and a non-existent bullpen (what was seen as sorely lacking from the year before). After that, he had almost no budget left. Then, midseason (not in the offseason when people are available), he loses TROUT and RENDONE, two of the sport’s biggest stars. Was Perry supposed to use the pennies he had left to replace those two? And do it midseason with a trade that further wrecks the farm system?
Or should he have used foresight, and signed good (= expensive) players for both CF and 3B just to sit on the bench, but preparing for the injuries? We would have been screaming “why did you sign that expensive bench player instead of using the money on a pitcher!!!”
Lots and lots of 20/20 hindsight going on here, which makes it easier to blame Perry.
But as you said, just my opinion too, so indeed have a good day!
WHY DIDN”T PERRY SEE THAT SIGNING THE BEST CLOSER ON THE MARKET AND THREE OF THE TOP TEN RELIEF ARMS ON THE MARKET WOULD PROBABLY TOTALLY FAIL…. and sign another closer and three other pitchers as back up…. and then maybe a few more back up arms to be safe in case the first pile of safe fails when the pile of good fails? What a f*** up.
I don’t care how anyone’s day goes. We all lie about that anyway.
Is “choke the chicken” a new euphemism for Jeffrey Toobin’s on camera hobby?
I just make ’em up as I go along. 🐓 ☠ 😀
Minasian simply isn’t the right guy for this job. We need someone who can overcome the impossible situation of working for an owner like Arturo, not a Clubhouse boy who is unsuccessfully learning on the job. He seems to be a passive errand boy rather than someone who is taking charge. Perhaps he will become competent on this next job, much like his two predecessors. Obviously, the problems don’t begin and end with him, but he does not appear to be part of the solution.
I think he was supposed to come out, speak “truth to power”, and then cut himself open with a short sword after reading off a list of all the JuniorGm Interwebers he didn’t listen to.
You know. Honesty.
He was going to get toasted no matter what he said, he was in the proverbial no-win situation in that interview.
Perry, please tell us how you suck, why your team sucks, and when you plan to not suck anymore….
I think making him POBO won’t make him suck anymore.
Well, yes, that’s true. Once they drop that final POBO stone into Perry’s gauntlet he will have the power to do almost anything…. like turn Justin Verlander into a jar of delicious cookies.
Who knew Albert would have a more exciting season than the Angels/Trout
It’s a metaphor for everything bad about a team. No repay for 10 years of crappy performance, then watch him play better and we a better clubhouse guy as soon as he’s gone.