LA Angels Tuesday News Crash: International Draft

The League and the Players Association exchanged proposals on the International Draft. Monday was the deadline for them to come to some sort of agreement. The Players Association rejected MLBs final proposal. The Qualifying Offer will still be around next off season. International players still need to come in by free agency.

The Angels asking price for Shohei Ohtani includes established major league players, not prospects. I didn’t get this into the links yesterday. Check out this overlay of Reid Detmers fastball and curve. Mike Trout has fallen to number 47 on this year’s Top 50 Trade Value countdown at Fangraphs.

Phil Nevin made this list of the six managers most likely to get fired before the end of the season. He came in at fourth most likely to be fired.

Trevor Story will play for Team USA in the World Baseball Classic.

Andrew Heaney is expected to be activated from the injured list on Wednesday. The Twins signed Michael Feliz to a minor league deal. He rejected an outright assignment by the Red Sox earlier this season and was a free agent.

Adam Duvall will undergo season ending wrist surgery. Kevin Kiermaier will have season ending hip surgery. Hey! The Rays need a center fielder! Yordan Alvarez is still dealing with a sore right hand.

Tanner Tully of the Guardians and Matt Swarmer of the Cubs both cleared waivers and were outrighted to AAA. Apparently Perry doesn’t intend to address the pitching issues with random waiver claims. Let’s hope he’s got something good working before the trade deadline.

Photo credit: Rex Fregosi

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Eric_in_Portland
Legend
1 year ago

I jokingly suggested that Gonsolin’s poor performance in the All-Star Game might lead to him being Hammaker’d. ‘Cause, you see, Atlee Hammaker was 9-4 at the break in 1983, came in to pitch in the ’83 game, gave up a grand slam to Freddie Lynn and then went 1-5 in the 2nd half of the season.

So I was glad to see Gonsolin’s first appearance after getting torched by Stanton and Buxton turned into his first loss of 2022. Hopefully there’ll be many more.

Twebur
Legend
1 year ago
RexFregosi
Super Member
1 year ago

What’s gone wrong?

Fletcher, Trout, Bradley and Rendon injured
Marsh/Adell haven’t found it and Walsh regressed
Iglesias, Loup, Tepera, – not living up to expectations

Are you all sure by firing Arte and Perry this will fix things?

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  RexFregosi

They are. See Rex, what we aren’t understanding is there is a culture. A dark and evil culture. This culture prevents winning…. accept in the town where it doesn’t. Like the 70s Yankees and A’s, the 90 Reds, the mid-80s Brewers, every Twins team that won in the late 80 to early 90s, Ted Turner’s Braves, and some other teams. But yeah, you are obviously ignorant of the nefarious culture of evil and marketing and strippers and drug dealing and UCL snipping in the night as young men sleep in beds of dirty straw in a barn at our MiLB fields… fields full of broken glass and land mines because the evil is also cheap and hates winning. The evil only loves money, but not all the extra money he could have by winning, just a semi-large chunk of money he gets from having a couple stars on the team.

You see Rex. People like us are just far too simple to understand these things.

RexFregosi
Super Member
1 year ago

but they said it was all Scioscia’s fault and firing him was supposed to fix all this.
i’m just more skeptical this time.

And looking at the evidence, we won stuff with Arte before 2010.

So maybe Gubi is the evil one who brings darkness – we ain’t won shit since he became entrenched in the booth.

Lets purge the franchise of anyone who wasn’t here before 2010.

El_Duderino
Trusted Member
1 year ago
Reply to  RexFregosi

First of all you can’t fire Arte because he’s the owner. I’m not sure that another owner would fix things, but Arte has proven to us that he is not the type of owner that is very good at picking competent baseball people to run the org.

Brent
Super Member
1 year ago
Reply to  RexFregosi

How do you fire the owner?

RexFregosi
Super Member
1 year ago

This fact made my day today:

Since 4th of July, Boston has a worst record than us.
News like that has made me happy!

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
1 year ago
Reply to  RexFregosi

it’s pretty close

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  RexFregosi

Mmmmmm….. hate warms the heart AND smells like fresh baked cookies.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
1 year ago

some interesting tidbits

Keuchel has signed a minor league deal with Texas. I know….so what?

Seattle broke their 3 game losing streak last night. Hopefully they can start a new one tonight.

To illustrate the fragility of pitchers and as a warning against dealing for young pitching, Mackenzie Gore is now on the IL.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
1 year ago
Reply to  Twebur

better days are coming. By the time the kids are ready, Perry will have learned a lot and will be making good signings and trades. Remember, he’s an intern and going through a learning process.

Fansince1971
Legend
1 year ago

Wait til next year!

Gotta tell you I am unwilling to be optimistic. It’s purely wait-and-see at this point.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
1 year ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

we will know if we’re doomed if and when Arte fires Perry and replaces him with another intern (instead of an experienced GM).

Fansince1971
Legend
1 year ago

We all blamed Dipoto. But he has proven to be a competent GM.

We then blamed Eppler. He is doing well with the Mets.

The evidence leads to one conclusion to me. It’s Arte. As long as he is the owner, I refuse to get optimistic. Just wait-and-see.

  • El_Duderino
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    Has DiPoto really been proven a competent GM? Seems like Seattle has been getting worse and worse every year, with high expectations and even lower results.

    smithy610
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  El_Duderino

    Hasn’t Jerry done better since leaving the Angels? He has Seattle’s farm system in the top 20s. Scott Servais proved to be a competent enough manager. He had Seattle close enough to the playoffs the last year, and probably this year as well, barring a major breakdown. His prospects, except for Kelenic, has done well so far.

    To be honest, with how this team sucked the past few years since 2014, I’d rather be in Seattle’s position of being in the playoff race until the last day the last year, and being in thick of the WC race this year. At least you’re looking forward to watching meaningful games, rather than a sample of the garbage they trotted out last night, and most other nights.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  smithy610

    Seattle’s already managed, through graduation and trades, to get their system down from #1 or 2 to below the middle, probably 16 or 17, in a very sort time.

    This is actually something to ponder. Trading big names for prospects (something I am still in favor of if need be) only gets you an immediate injection of prospects…. most of which will still fail.

    The Angels need to build a real pipeline. From having connections in various Latinexxx countries to having at least dedicated area scouts in Florida, Georgia, Texas, Arizona and California. All the way up to having a development plan from Rookie to AAA ball.

    And to think, this can all be done for the cost of one year of Cody Allen….

    RexFregosi
    Super Member
    1 year ago

    also better decisions regarding his field manager.

    Future PTP would have kept Joe around longer.

    Senator_John_Blutarsky
    Legend
    Reply to  RexFregosi

    If Joe didn’t get the Mohawk….

    Jeff Joiner
    Editor
    Legend
    1 year ago

    I’m stoked for the WBC. Already planning my Spring Training trip for that week. I’ll figure the MLB games out around the WBC.

    I went to the last one at Chase Field. I always love the National Anthem before a ballgame. But singing along with it as Team USA was on the field gave me goosebumps.

    It will be three generations sitting there cheering on the red, white, and blue. Can’t wait.

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Jeff Joiner

    Trout will be on the DL

    jefeRey14x
    Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  benjiface

    Dude is excited for WBC. You’re just gonna dark-cloud him like that? Find someone or something to love.

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  jefeRey14x

    I’m actually excited for it too, and I hope Trout plays.

    RexFregosi
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Jeff Joiner

    i didn’t see a game at CHASE, but the teams will have practice games against MLB clubs.

    In 2007, i saw USA play SF Giants in Scottsdale. Keep an eye out for those opportunities as well in early March.

    Last edited 1 year ago by RexFregosi
    Omahalo22
    Member
    1 year ago

    Never thought I’d pine for Disney ownership. That’s saying something. Lol.

    Last edited 1 year ago by Omahalo22
    nishiogawakun
    Super Member
    1 year ago

    What’s *sometimes* interesting to me is teams like the A’s and Ray’s in the last decade win IN SPITE of their ownership it seems. Unjustifiably low payroll, trading away stars, crappy locations/stadiums. It’s like the team says “you can’t hold me back!”. Then there are the Angels. Great location, legendary talent, and a large payroll, yet we lose IN SPITE of it all. Like Stuart on SNL, “look what I can do!”

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0DWShK9a-o

    Sad trombone noises.

    Fansince1971
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  nishiogawakun

    I would have to wildly speculate here but I have always presumed that those kinds of organizations have better player development and better scouting which leads to the development of players on the farm who can step in and produce at the major-league level.

    Cowboy26
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    Which were the angels when Arte purchased the team from Disney. He knows what a successful organization looks like. he also knows how to destroy one.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    GrandpaBaseball
    Legend
    1 year ago

    Going in the direction of wanting established players in return for Ohtani is just looking for more mediocracy and going nowhere with no real plan to succeed. Plenty of us here may not to want to trade Shohei, I being one, but the team signing of Rendon was just what the team didn’t need. I now conclude that the best direction for the Angels to move forward is to just concentrate on youth, a total rebuild.

    Arte Moreno, I believe is going to sell this team soon, the window for a Championship has sailed. He tried in his own ways to make it work but failed miserly in his efforts. The teams value can only regress at this point and moving forward. Losing Shohei is going to be devastating, Mike Trout being constantly injured or needing rest has worn the team down. Signing Rendone was just plain old bad management of resources.

    How to fix the problems? Either to signed Shohei and spent the money to bring in the folks that know how to rebuild the scouting and development departments and being in top notch coaching and teachers and wait for the results to show

    or

    Sell the team

    or

    Trade every one of the guys of value and package the fringe platers also and go total youth. But you still can’t cut the corners of building from the ground up through development and complete scouting.

    Staying the course is also on the table and that will amount to nothing.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend

    Or…. trade everyone, get the payroll down to as clean a slate as possible, then sell the team, then move the team to Las Vegas before the A’s can get it together and stop piddling around, swearing and hoping the city of Oakland really actually loves them and is gonna give them some love any year now.

    Victory.

    Cowboy26
    Legend
    1 year ago

    So what is it then? Sell the team or move the team? if you sell the team you aint going to be moving it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCYtC1p6xbo

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  Cowboy26

    If the right guys buy the team they’ll move, especially when stadium deals get involved….

    • Stan Kroenke
    Halo71
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago

    The Angels have zero intention of trading Ohtani. They know teams won’t trade established players for him

    DowningDude
    Legend
    1 year ago

    My favorite part was when you typed “failed miserly” …

    Good one. Cheap Arte spending poorly at the wrong time and tightening the budget in other not so sexy yet more important places.

    “Failing miserly.” An Arte Billboard Cabal même has been created.

    jefeRey14x
    Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  DowningDude

    Scrooge McDuck with mustache makes this work.

    Fansince1971
    Legend
    1 year ago

    This Trout nagging injury is very interesting to me. I have no evidence to support it but I feel like there may be more to the picture such as burnout, not enjoying playing baseball or something other mental issue.

    GrandpaBaseball
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    I am thinking along the same line of thought here. But if he wants out, and who can blame him, he needs to play up to his potential and waive the no trade. Not sure if Philly can afford him with Bryce on the books, so his contract may have to be reworked to go there. But he has in my eyes gone from the best I had ever seen to just a very good player. The biggest asset a player brings to the game is the ability of availability. Trout simply can no longer be counted upon, and as we have found out does not want to have a leadership role placed upon him for whatever reason.

    Cowboy26
    Legend
    1 year ago

    Great maybe he will retire and unchain us from that contract then.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend

    He can waive the NTC all he wants, no one’s trading for his contract at this point unless we cover a bunch of it, which defeats the purpose of trading him. We’d have to fire sale him after he waives the NTC…. send him to the Mets and get back a couple #25-30 prospects back.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    If Trout’s willing to fake or overstate an injury because he has a case of the sads then screw him.

    Thing is, I seriously doubt he’s doing that. I think it’s more of a case where, if you are a hammer, then everywhere you look you see that Arte is a huge fish with a head full of cultures that love to get down.

    But if Trout’s all balled out from all the excellent August and September performances he’s had and just doesn’t want to play anymore, he can retire. Void his contract. Sit out a year. Then go with another team.

    Fansince1971
    Legend
    1 year ago

    This is more me trying to figure things out in my own mind. It’s quite possible that it’s simple as a back and ribcage injury that needs to heal so that it doesn’t become nagging. But deep down I feel like there is some kind of frustration or emotional component. Maybe I’m projecting my own frustration. The Angels are so tight lipped in providing information it’s very easy to speculate.

    Last edited 1 year ago by Fansince1971
    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    Well, it’s a near certainty that Trout has not enjoyed losing these last few years, nor has he enjoyed being injured, so I’m sure he is somewhat unhappy…. though, after his pay is invested, etc…. having half a billion dollars salves a lot of hurt.

    JackFrost
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    Yeah, I think that is pretty clear. I said this last week.

    Trout is not the type of guy to complain in the media or “make a stink.” But I think sometimes the frustration just boils over… I suspect that is what we are seeing now.

    DowningDude
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  JackFrost

    I said it a month ago. 🏆

    JackFrost
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  DowningDude

    You win then.

    Jeff Joiner
    Editor
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    There’s no urgency for him to return. Other than individual accomplishments, counting stats towards his ultimate standing, anyway.

    The team is going nowhere and is better off just tanking for draft position. So we’re actually better off without him.

    MVP isn’t on the table for him. Neither are the playoffs. There’s no reason for him to come back unless he’s 100%.

    So they’ll sit him until he’s been 100% for a couple of days before they activate him.

    Fansince1971
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Jeff Joiner

    I guess. I mean do you just leave $400-plus million in the bench if he can play? I suppose your thought process is as good as any. But something just doesn’t sit right with me.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  Jeff Joiner

    Exactly. There’s no reason to risk ANOTHER 7-10 million dollars worth of injury to the guy. It doesn’t mean he’s some kind of passive aggressive pussy trying to avoid games because it’s how he protests softly to Moreno Malvado and also cause he so sad he need break…. plus his wife had a baby, something only 25% of young men live through the strain of.

    El_Duderino
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    It is tempting to think that, but more likely Trout is entering his thirties and trying to play baseball at the highest level that anyone has ever played at and he is not beating Father Time.

    That said, I would love to see Trout become more of the contact and situational hitter he was early in his career. I’m not sure if he is intentionally selling out for the hone runs but it appears that way.

    Last edited 1 year ago by El_Duderino
    MarineLayer
    Super Member
    1 year ago

    Since we know there’s no getting rid of Arturo, my next question is how long will he tolerate Minasian’s failure to deliver a decent product, with no light at the end of the tunnel in sight. Ohtani leaving this year or next, to be led by permanently injured Trout and Rendon and a bunch of scrubs exemplified by Rengifo hitting clean up is simply not a viable strategy.

    Fansince1971
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    Perry has zero responsibility for the Trout, Rendon or Ohtani situations you reference. He has just completed his second draft. And he has limited resources available to him due to Arte’s budget.

    I am not sure how much blame can be fairly heaped onto him.

    GrandpaBaseball
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    Exactly, being quick to point the finger of being guilty at Minasian is not fair at all. What if there had been no injuries to Fletch, Trouty, Rendon or Ward and Lorenzen, would that have kept the Team in the hunt for the wild card? I believe it would. Is PTP responsible for the bloated payroll? I do not believe he had anything to do with it. Under the circumstances PTP has done as much as anybody could have done. I have confidence in him now and will what and see where he leads us.

    tommyshalo
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago

    Perry does have his share of blame with this awful 30m-strong bullpen and a meh 21m and 7m SP.

    No one could have foreseen how the bullpen could collapse this bad after mid May, but with multi-year contracts looming and certain amount of money spent, Perry doesn’t get a pass from me.

    I still like and hold some hope for the 20 pitchers, but he certainly has to do something good soon.

    Last edited 1 year ago by tommyshalo
    MarineLayer
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    What about Loup Tepera, the Iglesias overpay, the shortstop crapshow, no OF depth, $21 million for Snydergaard, relying on converted reliever Lorenzen to stay healthy as an SP, and no bench depth off the top of my head. Who owns that?

    Fansince1971
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    I mean I guess you could blame Perry for not having a crystal ball. How much is he really to blame for Loup, Tepera and Iglesias shitting the bed and having uncharacteristically terrible years? I mean I would NEVER have predicted that.

    I am not as critical as you of the Syndegaard signing. The lack of run support has made it overly difficult on him. I think he’s pitched pretty decently.

    GonFishin
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    He brought them in so…yeah he is getting the blame. Not sure how you can even absolve him from the roster construction, even taking out the bullpen of the equation. You can try and excuse him for the trout and Ohtani situations, but this terrible lineup, lack of depth, and lack of quality coaching is 100% on him and I don’t see how that is even arguable.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  GonFishin

    See, there’s this magic thing that most managers in companies do when an employee totally fails to do what he’s getting paid for. Blame the employee (unless he’s in a union).

    It’s OK to just admit that the GM hired candidates that made sense, but then they turned out to suck. The players. They suck. It’s not the manager, or coaches, or culture, or secret evil rotting fish heads, or the GM or having six scouts instead of seven, or lunch meat instead of salmon…. these players just suck at their jobs. If they get their hands off their ankles and just do what they had done for years before 2022 things would be better, but they don’t.

    h27kim
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    I think Perry did OK job working around the budget constraints. The cheapest way to get back to (possible) competitiveness was to get a competent rotation and a strong BP. While Syndegaard was a gamble that hasn’t paid off as much as we’d liked, both he and Lorenzen have been competent enough. Where FO whiffed badly was the BP, and even there, we did sign the players who, given what we knew half a year ago, were the right people–hindsight deceives by telling us stuff that we couldn’t have known. Not too happy with how things panned out, but blame for making “wrong” choices on pitching, I can’t place on Perry. WRT lack of position player depth, there is some blame, but not too much–there wasn’t much room in the budget and the choice of inexpensive players was sparse.

    Last edited 1 year ago by h27kim
    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  h27kim

    This excellent point is an example of what all non- Yankee/Dodger fan bases have to deal with. You hope they sign big contracts, especially with YOUR players. You hope they sign free agents that make sense for your needs, which PTP did. You understand there is going to be a payroll limit. There is. So you always have a couple spots on the roster that worry you. If the team competes, these spots are often addressed with call ups or midseason trades. If your chosen players perform, congrats, you are a genius. If they don’t, assholes on the internet will dissect everything about your org and find factual and mystical reasons you are a moron.

    I still don’t think any of us interlopers can hold PTP’s, Eppler’s or Tony Reagin’s jock when it comes to actual baseball GM work. And Arte…. he’s got to be the stupidest self made billionaire in the history of money.

    The scary reality is, what do we want instead? If injury and catastrophic and underperformance are what always sink your roster, what do you do? What does this team look like if Ward, Thor and Lorenzen and Sandoval do what they’ve done (without Loki’s injury), Ohtani is Ohtani, Trout and Rendon don’t get hurt and Trout doesn’t suck, and Tepera, Loup, Walsh, Iggy, Fletcher, Stassi, Bradley… they just do their normal jobs? Can anyone explain how upping the payroll to 250M fixes this? If these issues persist you just have a 250M failure instead of a 190M failure.

    And what do we want to do rather than bet on that? Bank on prospects working out rather than proven MLB players just doing their norm? Sure, I’m down, but I understand that that failure rate’s gonna be pretty high too. Don’t sign big contracts? OK. Sure, I guess. A team like that wins a WS every couple decades or so.

    Oh… wait… be magical and only sign players that work out brilliantly, like the 2021 Giants…. note how few Farhan Zaidi sightings we’ve had on this site of late…..

    h27kim
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago

    Well, I suppose, for this season, extra 50 mil would have brought a real SS, more competent roster depth, and a real half time catcher to complement Stassi, plus an extra experienced reliever. Maybe not a “fundamental” difference, but would have cushioned a lot of blows. Given how close so many of the losses are, I reckon that we might have picked up 10-15 wins and stay around in the playoff picture instead of dropping like a rock. Granted, not exactly something that you want to see out of a 250 mil payroll, but I think it beats going for the worst record in MLB with 190 mil payroll and two historically great players.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  h27kim

    See, here’s the unfun part. Which “real” shortstop would you have saddled yourself with for the next 5-10 years this past winter? IF, by some magic, they all turned out to want to play here?

    Which pen arms were you looking at this past winter that were better than Iglesias/Loup/Tepera/Bradley?

    Was it going to be more fun losing 90 games with two historic players, this current roster, PLUS Robbie Ray and Marcus Semien? That extra 50M wasn’t gonna get you a “real” catcher and additional pen arm and “depth” as well….

    On top of that, once you dig that hole deeper, really, truly, why build the farm?

    GMing is hard.

    smithy610
    Super Member
    1 year ago

    Which pen arms were you looking at this past winter that were better than Iglesias/Loup/Tepera/Bradley?

    Perry sucks for all these horrible signings! Who would have thought that after looking at their past numbers and stats, that they would suck badly when they come here?! Perry’s fault was that his eight-ball is no longer working.

    Which “real” shortstop would you have saddled yourself with for the next 5-10 years this past winter? IF, by some magic, they all turned out to want to play here?

    I’m guessing he’s thinking about Story, Seager, Semien or Correa.

    h27kim
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago

    Well, let’s see–looking back on what obvious names at SS got, about 30-35 mil per year would have gotten a shortstop, presumably closer to 35 mil if the years were to be short. The rest of what I was thinking are bench pieces (i.e. roster depth)–thus real “half time” catcher, a real major league reserve OF, maybe a better hitting reserve IF. Just based on the names I was thinking offseason and the contracts they actually signed, I suppose it would have been Correa (35 mil), Gomes (6.5 mil), Pillar (6.5 mil), Ottavino (4mil). So one starting position player, a catcher who could be a starter, and an extra bench piece and a risky extra pen arm. All of them, familiar names that everyone would figure is worth taking a chance on, although they all have some issues. And yes, one of them, Pillar, would have been a waste had things turned out exactly as they actually have turned out this season. Assuming that they’d have signed the contracts they eventually signed, all short term investments, and just around 50 mil extra in payroll (OK, a little over). I don’t think these would have been enough to make a “huge” difference, but they’d have softened the blow during June and July and keep us at least above water.

    Last edited 1 year ago by h27kim
    h27kim
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  h27kim

    PS. The point is that getting an all star SS plus 3-5 quality veteran backups to deepen bench and bp seems fairly trivial for 50 mil. I don’t see why you should think it’s ridiculous. Would you pay 10s of millions for quality depth pieces? Or, did you think I was suggesting you could sign an all star SS and all star SP for 50 mil, which would you be crazy.

    jefeRey14x
    Member
    1 year ago

    Far too rational and humble for this place. Admitting you can’t GM? WTF?

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    And giving up a 2nd-round pick as compensation for the Thor signing was rough

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  benjiface

    Yes. I mean, just look at history. All the teams whose destinies depended so so very much on that 2nd round draft pick. We need to never stop picking at the scab of this horrific wound.

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago

    Your sarcasm is dripping as usual. When considering rebuilding a farm system, this is exactly the kind of move that makes it difficult.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  benjiface

    So, what you’re saying is, in December of last year, you would have been cool with PTP coming out and saying “All three of the free agent pitchers who were any good and didn’t have QOs signed with other teams, the guy’s who were left would cost us a 2nd rounder, so I just didn’t sign any starting pitching. Here’s Lorenzen…”?

    Remember, the mantra was “Make or break yeeeeaaarrr!” back then.

    2GA2Join
    Super Member
    1 year ago

    Well, from what I remember, he signed Thor early while all the other pitchers were still available.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  2GA2Join

    Answer the question Claire. At the end of last winter you’d have been cool with just signing Lorenzen and keeping pick 2? Cause those were your options, that or Thor.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    Did he overpay for Iglesias? Or did he just sign an established closer for pretty much what established closers get paid?

    I mean, either way you’re safe. Sign him, complain about the overpay. Don’t sign him, complain about bargain bin closer in the bullpen. Win/win/wank.

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago

    Hard to fault PM for signing Iglesias too

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    Not faulting him for the Loup signing at all. That was an excellent signing. RPs are volatile for sure. He made a smart bet and whiffed. That happens with RPs

    Cowboy26
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  benjiface

    Sorry, but I’m results oriented I don’t give a shit anymore about smart bets. We have too high of a rate of failure on “smart bets”

    By all measures Loup, Tepera & Bradley were horrible signings. If Lorenzen doesn’t return soon you can add him to the list.

    Last edited 1 year ago by Cowboy26
    smithy610
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Cowboy26

    It wasn’t even a bet. Perry had legitimate data on Loup (and Tepera), and based on that data, which supported that Loup is a great LH reliever (which the Angels sorely needed) signed Loup.

    It’s only a horrible signing now because Loup, for some unknown reason, cratered horribly, and you have the benefit of hindsight.

    I mean, what else would Perry, or any GM for that matter rely on?! An eight-ball?! Or because of “volatility”, should he have expected good bullpen pieces to suck, and instead, sign those who sucked in the past seasons, hoping they will be trending up?

    Last edited 1 year ago by smithy610
    Cowboy26
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  smithy610

    Still a horrible signing. if you want to look at data look at Loup and every other PTP free agent 2022 stats.

    What do the other 29 teams do? Most of them do a lot better than us.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  smithy610

    Yah. Iglesias, Loup, Tepera and Villar…. all guys I specifically asked for last off season because I thought they’d help us out a lot.

    Fart.

    smithy610
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  benjiface

    If anyone was a bet, it was Thor. Coming off from TJ and not playing a full season in 2 years, and then signing him for 21M and giving up a 2nd rounder? That’s the bet.

    Looking at the statistics and numbers of a player who had an ERA of 0.95, BAA of .192, WHIP of 0.94 and 57Ks in 56 IP in 2021 is not a bet. It’s making an informed decision and a signing that made sense at that time. The player then turned out to be horrible.

    It sucks because it’s our team, and it feels like only our team have this fiasco in FA signings. But we’re not alone. At least we don’t have the fiasco of the Rangers who made it rain with Seager and Semien only to get a .799 and .701 OPS from them.

    Cowboy26
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    Iggy, Tepera, Loup, Wade, Squid, Bradley, Lorenzen and Thor are all on Perry. Why shouldn’t he be held accountable?

    Overseeing the draft is only one small part of Gm’s responsibility

    h27kim
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Cowboy26

    Wade and Velazquez are cheap AAA/AAAA depth pieces. That we have to rely on them is a travesty, but
    it’s not really on Perry.

    While Syndegaard has not been quite as good as his price (salary + draft pick), he has been pretty good. Lorenzen has been pretty decent–I’d say he’s been marginally better than what we are paying him, in fact.

    The BP sucks. But there, the problem is that we signed “the right people,” based on what we knew in the off-season. Assigning blame for how they turned to pumpkin has to be more nuanced than just blaming Perry

    Cowboy26
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  h27kim

    It looks like PTP committed $62M this year for 2 starting pitchers, a closer, 3 setup guys, a backup catcher and a Duffman and 3 of those guys.

    If they had performed well it would have been a coup. But this is the 5th consecutive year we experienced epic free agent failure over 2 GM’s

    Should that budget for that same list been closer to $100M ? I’m curious that even if we had an unlimited payroll do we still have a more ingrained problem that needs to be fixed? Whether its ML Coaching, pro scouting or horrible post game spreads, something else is amiss (more than just the owner is horrible)

    h27kim
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Cowboy26

    The “clear” whiffs are about 35 mil or so on the BP. I think we got acceptable value out of the 28 mil on Syndegaard and Lorenzen (Syndegaard was an overpay, but a gamble with potential high upside and he has, fwiw, pitched competently overall. I think we have gotten more than what we can reasonably expect out of a 7 mil SP from Lorenzen). But, even the BP signings were of the best relievers on the FA market back then. The real root of the unhappiness is that what seemed to be good signings all turned to pumpkin. I don’t know who is to blame for that, but it can’t be just the GM.

    Cowboy26
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  h27kim

    If Lorenzen never pitches another inning this year its a failure.

    Also our GM has been here for 2 years and has rebuilt the front office and minor leagues. You cant ignore that when you’re doling out responsiblity.

    Last edited 1 year ago by Cowboy26
    h27kim
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Cowboy26

    Let’s not get too carried away with the extent of Lorenzen’s injury (can’t believe I’m saying this since I know the history of injury info coming out of this FO as much as anyone here…..). FWIW, Lorenzen has been fairly competent (or, actually, better) before his injury. 15-day IL stints happen all the time to practically everyone. If he comes back and replicates what he did earlier, we’ll have gotten more than the money’s worth.

    Last edited 1 year ago by h27kim
    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  h27kim

    comment image

    Last edited 1 year ago by gitchogritchoffmypettis
    rosstrade
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  h27kim

    Perry is most definitely to blame for this season’s fiasco.

    He has even admitted this in a recent interview.

    It doesn’t matter that the bullpen pieces that he brought in had stellar productivity in the recent year’s past; the GM’s job is to anticipate how these new pieces will fit in and perform in a new Angels playing environment: and, in this, he failed miserably.

    And his failure is not only in the problems that he attempted to address in the past off-season – the BP and starting pitching – the bigger issues are the problems that he didn’t address, which are reflected in the horrible lack of productivity in the bottom half of the Angels batting order.

    And firing Joe Maddon after the 12 game losing streak…? This was a horrible decision. After Perry gets rid of Nevin at the end of the season, the team would have rolled though 3 managers in the course of a single season. This kind of fickleness and lack of consistently doesn’t help build the kind of team culture that creates good performance on the playing field….

    h27kim
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  rosstrade

    Now, we are getting into practically a mystical territory. We don’t know how well/poorly the new BP pieces “fit” with the rest of the team, whatever that means. Iggy certainly did well here for most of last season after some early hiccups. Is there a “clear” way to evaluate players that Perry should have been aware of, that no one else is using? I mean most of player evaluation methods are a mix of art, science, superstition, and luck. No one really knows what the right combination is and no one will publicly explain exactly how they do it–trade secret and all that. Maybe we could suspect the methods might be flawed if there are too many failures, but for now, the sample size is still too small.

    Last edited 1 year ago by h27kim
    smithy610
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  h27kim

    Now, we are getting into practically a mystical territory. We don’t know how well/poorly the new BP pieces “fit” with the rest of the team, whatever that means. Iggy certainly did well here for most of last season after some early hiccups. Is there a “clear” way to evaluate player that Perry should have been aware of, that no one else is using?

    Perry didn’t get rid of his old eight-ball and replace it with a brand new shiny one, that’s why!

    smithy610
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  Cowboy26

    Yes, it’s on him. But when Iggy, Tepera, Loup and Bradley were signed/re-signed, majority on here celebrated those moves. Finally, legitimate bullpen pieces! No more dumpster diving!

    Those bullpen pieces had an excellent April and May, and everyone was happy. Perry signed the right guys!

    Then came end of May, June and July, they all sucked in different ways. All of a sudden, it was “how come Perry didn’t predict they’d only be good for two months and they would suck the rest of the way?” How come no coach has been held accountable yet?! Hitting coach? Pitching coach? Bullpen coach?

    Personally, what I would put on Perry that he didn’t address sufficiently is SP and infield depth/offense. Lorenzen and Thor were obvious band-aids-cross-your-fingers-they-would-work signings. Rodon was still available close to start of season. I would have gone for him.

    Then again, budget constraints.

    Squid and Wade weren’t supposed to be everyday players. But when did Fletcher go down? That there weren’t better options on the bench, or from the farm to replace the infield, that I would put on Perry.

    JackFrost
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  smithy610

    Thor has actually not been bad. His ERA is 3.83 which is decent. It could be alot lower as well if Nevin had not left him in too long in several starts including last night and especially the home game against the Royals.

    The offense has not given Thor really any run support. He should have and would have won both Royals games he started had the offense done anything to speak of…

    Last edited 1 year ago by JackFrost
    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  JackFrost

    Do you think that maybe, if Thor likes it here, he’d be a candidate to re-sign him next year? Even if we manage to trade him? He hasn’t been SO good that he’ll get a huge contract, but he has been good enough to maybe warrant a multi-year deal at a lower yearly rate. He may also sneak into being better next year with more time on the mound post TJS recovery…. it happens.

    Maybe?

    2GA2Join
    Super Member
    1 year ago

    Possible. If we need another backend starter, maybe?
    Thing is, I really hope we trade him for at least something. Having him on the team until the end of this season does not provide any real benefit.
    But then if he is gone, it might be less likely for him to come back here… I don’t know.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  Cowboy26

    Can we lay it squarely at his feet?

    Senator_John_Blutarsky
    Legend
    Reply to  Cowboy26

    He owns those signings; the drafts will take 3 or 4 years to play out

    Senator_John_Blutarsky
    Legend
    Reply to  Fansince1971

    The last two drafts and the bullpen are Perry’s.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    Yeah! It’s been a year and a half for gah sake!

    2GA2Join
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    The only thing I really think Perry messed up was signing Thor. I didn’t need hindsight for that. Lots of pitchers were available when he did that, and he gave $21MM plus our 2nd round draft pick for a guy who didn’t pitch for 2 years. Full stop. That looked like a huge reach. In hindsight, indeed, Thor has pitched “decently”… but no where near the level that justifies what we gave up. But hey, no GM is perfect, so I’m certainly not thinking we should fire Perry because of this one move.

    I think Lorenzen will turn out as a wash. Not super great, but not a wreck.

    I think Iggy, was a little overpay, but that is what happens with most free agents. But the sudden collapse of Iggy, Loup and Tepera I do not blame on Perry. Most people saw these guys as the beginning of a solid bullpen for us. And people were screaming for an improved bullpen this year. Perry did what he could, and got burned.

    As for 2B and SS, he had peanuts to play with because of Arte’s payroll. Fletch being out no one predicted. But I would agree that Perry could have tried harder at SS.

    MarineLayer
    Super Member
    1 year ago

    Nevin isn’t even good at being bad. His epic failure as a manager is no better than #4.

    Last edited 1 year ago by MarineLayer
    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    Nevin is an angry doofus. He’s not the right guy for this job. I expect PM to start fresh with his guy (? Montgomery) at the start of next season.

    And I expect more of the same results

    MarineLayer
    Super Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  benjiface

    Yeah, there’s no manager who can change the fortunes of this team, particularly anyone who is currently embedded in Minasian’s loss culture.

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    I would agree, but Nevin simply isn’t a good manager and is actually kind of a jackass. He keeps embarrassing himself and the franchise.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  benjiface

    Hurr durr dee amber ass durr franchise dat is amber assment all times huh? 😅  😅  😋 

    There, I just thought I’d get that in for everyone….

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago

    We’ve had our fair share of embarrassing Angels franchise news in the past 5 years+. Oye.

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  benjiface

    I know it’s a total dream, but I’d like Bruce Botchy. Thing is, I could be totally wrong too. It’s not like having an established old man in the dugout (Maddon) did anything. So maybe we try an absolute rookie?

    I will also laugh with so much dark mirth if they bring back SOTH!

    But yeah. Nevin sucks. He’s the same guy as an chubby manager that he was when he was a player shaking his fist and bitching at the walls in Petco.

    DowningDude
    Legend
    1 year ago

    Perry would hire Bruce Botulism

    Cowboy26
    Legend
    1 year ago
    Reply to  DowningDude

    Wait Didn’t he play first base for us back in the seventies?

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  DowningDude

    HEYOOOOO!

    GonFishin
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  MarineLayer

    Nevin has almost the same amount of games suspended (10) as wins (13) since taking over. He’s not the guy.

    Last edited 1 year ago by GonFishin
    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  GonFishin

    He’s a guy

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  benjiface

    /smashcut to Nevin 😡 🤬 “I’M A MAN ^&*!*&%!#%*!!!!”

    Angels2020Champs
    Super Member
    1 year ago

    We’ll see if anything gets done by 8/2. The old way of trade deadlines (weren’t there two, the usual one in July then the waiver or something in august) definitely made it more confusing

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago

    Yeah, Aug. 31 Waiver Deadline

    ihearhowie3.0
    Super Member
    1 year ago

    Tear it dowwwnnnnnn

    gitchogritchoffmypettis
    Legend
    Reply to  ihearhowie3.0

    Then burn it. Then find it’s family, friends and pets and kill them.

    Become the Riverside Meth Savages!

    DowningDude
    Legend
    1 year ago

    The Meth Savage community is deeply offended by the use of their proud heritage as a team name.

    benjiface
    Trusted Member
    1 year ago
    Reply to  DowningDude

    You two need to quit meth’n around!