What if I told you that the Angels offense actually showed up today? That the hitting batted around in the first inning? It was a game of unnatural performance from the Angels hitters, all on a day that Shohei Ohtani did not pitch.
The Goose is loose, for you have entered, The Twilight Zone.
Picture it, a sunny day in Atlanta Georgia. Reid Detmers on the mound for the Halos. He goes out and has an outing where he pitches 5 shutout innings. The 2020 10th overall pick allowed no runs on only 3 hits, striking out 6 and walking 2.
Phil Gosselin made his first start for the Angels this season. Perhaps this was the spark that was needed, a loose goose if you will. Taylor Ward hit one out, looking like his April self. In fact, every starter got on base today, something that hasn’t been done in a long, long time.
Highlighted Recap
The Angels batted around in the first inning off Ian Anderson. Seriously.
First, Taylor Ward hit a 1 out home run!
Next, Stassi drove in one!
Jo Adell came through too!
Marsh made a productive out.
Even Squid did something good!
Ohtani almost made it 6-0, but, was denied.
This big lead was the confidence booster that Reid Detmers needed. He pitched like he had the lead, throwing strikes and making outs against the powerful Braves lineup.
In order to ensure the win, however, the Angels kept adding on runs.
Luis Rengifo drove in another, with a throwing error scoring Ward as well.
Max Stassi hit a sac fly for yet another run!
Jo Adell is not good at defense. But since it is The Twilight Zone today, he made a great catch!
Wantz did give up a run, however.
The Angels did get that run back though thanks to a Stassi triple!
The Angels win! It is the first time the Angels won a non Ohtani start since June 27th. 40-55 on the year now.
Why is the collective brain trust around here so convinced that if Scrooge Moreno dumps $500M gold doubloons at Ohtani’s feet, he’ll sign a contract here?
The only words we’ve heard Ohtani say is that he wants to win. If he wants to win, then why sign on here for 10 years? If Arte expands payroll to afford Ohtani, doesn’t the current problem get worse? Would Ohtani wait 5 or more years to be on a team competing for a Championship? If Trout can stay healthy in his age 29 and 30 seasons, imagine what the age 35 seasons will be like.
I remain unconvinced that the status quo is what Ohtani wants. If Arte offered him $50M a year, I still think he’s gone.
I think Shohei at the beginning of the season was the most comfortable he’d ever looked in the US. He had friends, knew his way around the building and organization that caters to him with a 6 man rotation, lets him make his own schedules etc.
Also – he CHOSE the Angels. We didn’t draft him. We weren’t good when he picked us over the Dodgers and Yankees. The idea he will sell himself to the best team is maybe a little overblown. He just wants to compete, would prefer to do it with the Angels being functional.
In May I thought there was 0% chance he’d leave since he does seem to value comfort, peace etc.
Now that we’re a dumpster fire I think I put him wanting out at like 51% — I think there’s a real chance a better 2023 convinces him to stay even if its with opt-out clauses early in the extension to give him an escape hatch.
Very well put. I agree with most of your insights here. I think as things stand right now, chances are a little bit better he would leave rather than stay. Of course, that is assuming Arte is ready and willing to give him the bag — and we don’t know that for sure. But your main point about 2023 is key. IF we can turn things around for the remainder of 2022 and at least be respectable, AND be a well above .500 team who is competitive in 2023 I think there would be a VERY good chance he would stay, mostly for the reasons you stated above. And giri of course.
I think that is why many people are convinced that he will be gone. Ohtani does not seem to care that much about money, or at least, about the size of his contract. Are there so many non-baseball intangibles here that he’d stay even with the clearly dysfunctional team? Maybe, but if so, would he take a comically small contract–compared to his likely market value, based on his baseball ability as well as marketability–in spite of everything? This, more than anything, seems like the reason to plan for post Ohtani future.
This felt so strange: to win…and win big? over a real baseball team.
Truly this was something between Light and Shadow, between Science and Superstition, from an area which we can only call the Twilight Zone.
Angels set the price for Ohtani, Kenny believes if he is moved it probably wouldn’t be until the off-season.
Angels want established major leaguers in return to remain “competitive.”
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10043150-shohei-ohtani-trade-rumors-angels-would-seek-established-mlb-players-in-deal
Perry got smart. He must listen to offers, so set a very high price. If some team meets the price, awesome.
And now we can all speculate if any team could put a package together to satisfy both sides.
Lets also speculate what was speculated in this fine piece of speculation journalism.
Well, it seems Arte has had a change of heart, or mind.
In any case, it is good that they are smart enough to understand that to get equal value in any deal they will need to get established MLB players in return. Hopefully this will shut up the amateurs with their ridiculous four prospects for Ohtani ideas…
“There’s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can’t get fooled again.”
Michael Scott?
Jose Mota?
Socrates?
Chico Escuela?
Confucious?
The Piano that has been drinking?
It is GW Bush. Probably his most famous quote. Maybe his funniest as well..
He almost said “Won’t Get Fooled Again.”
So if we trade Ohtani would it be “Mission Accomplished?”
It will probably be a similar result.
I guess if we got screwed in the trade it would. What had we done at that point? I think we knocked over a statue of Saddam Hussein..
Only later did we find out the yellowcake Uranium from Niger story was complete, total bullshit.
Well if he wont, I will. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q
Bull…. I know Jose Mota when I hear him.
See – we just simply disagree and that is fine. Don’t need to shut anybody up. What ever happened to discourse in which reasonable minds disagree?
I think the Angels goal of remaining ‘competitive’ is a silly one. Remaining competitive generally places a team in the middle of the pack as it has the Angels for 8 seasons. It may be good for business by keeping butts in the seats, but it accomplishes little else.
So my personal preference is that IF Ohtani is to be traded, it is the beginning of a complete rebuild which would include many top prospects to refill the MLB roster. I would prefer a 3-5 year plan where a core of young, top talent is developed and a pipeline of inexpensive MLB ready talent makes its way to Anaheim.
That is my vision – yours is obviously different. Does not make you right and me wrong.
The longer the Angels wait to trade Ohtani, the less they will receive in return with the possible exception of a sign and trade deal.
I thought your Cards idea was pretty good. I was going to suggest when you were getting crucified, that the Halo’s work in Carlson and maybe Edman. Take out Liberatore and the shortstop, Win. But yeah, some gentle massaging and let’s make it happen. Angles could get 4-5 starters and a pitcher out of this deal.
Crucifixion is typical with a faceless situation like a thread. I prefer face to face communication. I enjoy honest debate.
Take a look at this Farm evaluation. Angels don’t have a single top tier (Tier 1) talent. Compare their system to The Cards, Dodgers and others. Using Ohtani to retool the team’s terrible farm is not without some merit although it would require patience.
https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/10042595-updated-mlb-farm-system-rankings-after-2022-mlb-draft.amp.html
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/bd69c204-f981-4e69-b55e-2ad5dd9e6935
I’m following completely. I read that article the day after the draft and the Angels rating is pretty consistent with Fangraphs as well as their assessment of the Cards. The Angel farm is just putrid. No player in MLBs or BBA Top 100. Maybe Bush next year, maybe? Hoping Neto just rakes out of the gate.
If the Angels could swing a deal for 3-4 Top Tier 1 prospects, you have to consider it. Carlson would be a nice add from the Cards in that deal. 23-years old and having a bit of a down year after good rookie campaign.
I would also look at the Mets or Dodgers to swing an Ohtani deal. I know we would hate to see him in Dodger Blue but they have a very good farm too and financial resources. Eppler would make Cohen go all our for him, is the other big fish.
Well, it is not going to happen according to Rosenthal. So we don’t have to worry about Perry completing some nightmare trade like the Red Sox did with the Doyers.
The team who gets the best player in a trade always wins the trade . It is that simple. I don’t want to see Ohtani crushing locally for the Dodgers continually and think about how screwed we got in “that” trade.
But I won’t have to will I.
Angry Angry Jack Frost
Who hurt you? Why are you so frost-y?
I would like to hang out….have a couple beers
Debate the Angels
And see if that frost might melt…..
Unless “best” that player costs 35M a year and is hurt 60% of the time. A 10 WAR player who only produces 2WAR a year because of injury and rust is still just a 2 WAR player.
The way I see it, I don’t think it likely that we will truly get fleeced in a trade, unless we really really mess it up. Because what we are trading away is ONE year of Ohtani. Not 4. Not even 2. So if we get a handful of Tier 1 prospects (which is exactly what I think we should aim for… i.e. trading for Soto would be silly), I have a hard time believing we’ll totally “lose” that trade.
After 2023, and Ohtani signs a $500MM extension with the Dodgers, and he wins 5 titles and 4 MVPs and 3 Cy Youngs, people are NOT allowed to say “well the Angels only got those prospects but gave up a guy that ‘won 5 titles and 4 MVPs and 3 Cy Youngs’. So their GM screwed up and totally lost that trade”. Because that is just spinning the facts. The Angels will have traded away only what Ohtani does in 2023, not the rest of his career.
WTF is a tier 1 prospect?
Apparently when you look up prospect lists, look at every team except ours, and you’ll see they have at least 1.
Ok before we all drone on about whether we should trade Ohtani or not, Lets look at the last handful of major ( all star caliber) players for prospects trades that have occurred the last few years. I apologize in a advance if I missed someone:
I thought of:
Mookie Betts
Giancarlo Stanton
Nolan Arrenado
Scherzer/Turner combo
Christian Yelich (traded with 4-5 years of contract left)
Marcell Ozuna (Traded with 3 years of control left)
Paul Goldschmidt
Out all of those trades, the only one that I would classify as a win for the team receiving “Tier whatever prospects” was the Ozuna trade . Now I get it that some of the traded prospects could still ripen into all star major leaguers, for the most part these trades appear to suck beyond belief. In fact I think id rather watch Ohtani walk out the door than have to justify these returns.
Sounds like Arte needs to go full Mike Illitch (or Arte circa 2003) and just spend like a Arab Sheik this offseason.
Wouldn’t Trea Turner & Wilson Contreras (among others) look really good in those Angels City Connect uniforms?
Thanks for this commonsense share Cowboy.
And I totally 100 % agree. I would rather let Shohei walk for nothing instead of getting fleeced and helping the opposition win.
I don’t see it that way. First of all, we were discussing the possibility he gets traded in season, this year. That would essentially be like one and a half years of Ohtani. I realize the prediction is that a deal would not be done until the off-season, but in theory a trade right now is still on the table.
Furthermore, look at it this way; if a team gets Shohei now, or even prior to start of 2023 that have a year to get to know him, woo him, talk to him, in short to make him comfortable. It is their opportunity to show him he would be happy there going forward. So, in a sense what we are selling is the opportunity to woo Ohtani and keep him.
Also,, and I think this is the bigger point — if we trade him prior to the start of 2023 it means we have “thrown in the towel.” In short, we will have surrendered our chance to win in 2023 and show him we are ready to be competitive. Because Shohei is so important to our success I would gladly sacrifice a handful of prospects for the chance (I think a GOOD chance) to convince him to stay by how we play in 2023.
I think a 3-5 year plan building up the team step by step from farm system upward is about the only choice left. Until this year, the belief that so many of us held on to was that a team with Trout and Ohtani can’t be uncompetitive. As long as we get complementary pieces, we can make things work. I think this season has shown us how unrealistic that faith was and that we need to take a few steps back and reassess fundamentally.
Agreed.
The worst idea was put forth by some guy at the athletic where we’d get Soto for Ohtani, Rendon, and Adell plus we’d send cash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q35PgSXhKg
Moreno needs to sack up, increase the payroll to $230-$240MM per year and pay their staff ACE the $32-$36MM he is worth.
You are about 15 mil too low I’m afraid.
Yeah, $45M-$49M is where my head is at.
I’m guessing 10 years $445 million. That would eclipse both Trout’s record total contract amount as well as Scherzer’s AAV of $43.333 million.
…and buyers remorse sets in after year 5 or 6 of that contract.
Or… year 2.
I just don’t see him doing that
On one hand, Bleacher Report is about the least credible source out there. On the other hand, it would be dereliction of duty for Minasian not to feel out the market. The real constraint is which teams (or combination of teams, if necessary) have the pieces we need, which in turn brings the real question to the fire: what do we think we need and what infrastructure do we need/have to make these pieces “work” in the near future? All acquisitions will be raw and/or flawed in some fashion: nobody trades a flawless player, even for Ohtani. So can we assess the flaws and fix them?
If you want to send us flawed players for Ohtani you ain’t getting him. No how, no way. Sorry. You don’t trade in two Audis and get a Lamborghini.
Ain’t gonna happen, lol.
You do realize we’re not gonna get strait up value for value from an Ohtani trade right? I mean, you talk about how long you’ve been at this constantly, so I assume you’ve seen this before. We will trade him if we aren’t gonna sign him… because he knows about all the evil, and his mom wants him to leave. So we get what we can for him, and we also don’t have to pay him. we won’t be getting an established #1 pitcher and a 130 OPS+ bat for him… plus prospects, etc.
We will likely get unproven players who may turn out to be flawed, along with some useful players. We’ll get even less for Trout, and much much less for Rendon if we can trade their husks, and we’ll have to send money to get good prospects.
Well said. Even top prospects are a gamble. Young “proven” major leaguers, let alone “top prospects,” flame out at fairly high rate. I’m always stunned when I look back on how many players “worked out” in various “big” trades. (For example, take the Miguel Cabrera trade. I thought Willis was going to be big in Detroit, but that didn’t happen.
Maybin turned out to be a longtime major leaguers, butjust a spare piece. Miller became an all star, but took a longer and different route than expected. And I have no idea who else was involved. Were they all “flawed”?
Well, yes, absolutely in retrospec. But it’s absurd to expect that any young player would not be “flawed” in some form. You “win” trades only if you have the wherewithal and luck so that you can iron out these flaws. )
The source of the Bleacher Report article is Rosenthal’s Athletic piece.
And here’s the opening paragraph: “Teams are calling the Angels on Shohei Ohtani. Teams also are calling them on Mike Trout. Teams call non-contenders on virtually every star player this time of year, no matter how expensive the player, no matter how valuable. “(emphasis added)
The rest of the article is all just supposition and speculation. Seems like everybody needs to take a little breather here
Even Rosenthal has nothing to write sometimes other than banal non-stories. Every team will kick tire on every star on every non-contending team and GM’s will try to gauge the market just in case. Maybe, just maybe, something might grow out of these, but probably not. Crazy game and all that.
Considering the amount of teams who seem to be able to turn trash into gold that turns back into trash after it leaves (Dodgers, Rays, Giants) I’d be hesitant on what major leaguers Minasian is choosing.
He has, after all, done a poor job choosing major leaguers to this point and that is why we’re even talking about this.
A big league starter, an above average position player and 2-3 legit prospects in AA or higher feels like a deal that would serve now and the future.
Toronto is a team thast would make sense. If they wanted to part with Bichette for instance along with prospects I don’t see how you don’t consider that.
“A big league starter?” Are you kidding?
Try an All-Star Ace. And that is just for STARTING a conversation. Just a starter is getting the phone hanged up immediately. You need to bring a Musgrove or Buehler or similar stud, then a good solid position player like Will Smith of Dodgers PLUS a solid prospect arm like Bobby Miller, plus a solid bullpen arm like Graterol, that is the kind of offer needed to move the needle.
That would work for me.
If you can get that I’ll take it. Please go and get that.
Yeah, lol. I’ll take that too. Just not gonna happen, not the way these things work.
Hell, they can keep Graterol. Fatter version of Hansel Robles. Dude is a mess.
Sure, I also would like to win the lottery tomorrow.
In reality, what team trying to compete by obtaining Ohtani is surrendering a big league All-Star ace???
The Angels are not 1 ace away. If we were, we’d be pretty good with Ohtani this year! They need depth. A solid #3 starter under control for years and say, an above average 2nd baseman is a worthwile package for the Angels while 2-3 prospects is an ideal return for the 2024-2026 Angels that will not be able to count on Mike Trout carrying them every year.
You do not give up a young top 5 MLB pitcher, Ace and not get one back.
If teams won’t pay the price then don’t trade him. That simple.
See you later. Bye !
If only we could trade all our big contract players… and then some other team actually receives the players that come in the trade…. and we all just get a lifetime supply of mascara and eyeliner to smear all over our tear streaked faces.
I’m onboard with your sense. I’d figure a mid-rotation-esque arm with high upside who’s available long term (Ashby with Brewers?), a competent and young middle infielder also available for long term (I might have named Hiura a while ago, speaking of Brewers, but his stock seems to have fallen badly so not too sure), and 3-4 prospects, of whom at least 2 hopefully with ETA in ’24 or ’25 at the latest. Give up on ’23, gamble (without risking too much) on ’24, and try for reals on ’25. That seems to be the most plausible combination of realistic and optimistic.
As the famous philosophers ELO said, “…it’s a miracle…”
https://youtu.be/VRFdQO7GyS8
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/73ae615f-a872-48ce-801d-7cea7d05ef25
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2be4fOXBH6E
Angels Win!
https://twitter.com/jefffletcherocr/status/1551303555587375111?s=21&t=8rXU5I0e67TSgpMQ694lGw
Arte ain’t trading away Ohtani.
Uh huh.
https://twitter.com/JeffFletcherOCR/status/1551312042950270978
Crampectomy forthcoming. Stay tuned
It always starts with a cramp….then before you know it he’s on the 60 day DL
Amputate immediately!
Groin TJ surgery being scheduled.
Just need to win 15/17 and there’s a chance!
😂
Bwaaaaahahahaha
thanks, JHW! Great work getting these videos of actual highlights.
And since I’m only on my smart phone, I always appreciate that your embedded videos are in the responsive format.(iframe wrapper or something?)
I would be grateful if you could spread that technique including embedded tweets which I can only see the left side on my phone.
The Angels saved some face with this win.
Let’s hope they can build some momentum against the Royals and Rangers.
At this point do you really want to see this momentum carry on to a lot of wins. Drafting in the 2023 means being ahead of most teams in each round of the draft. We need to start the rebuild somewhere and winning now is no different than the last 7 years of drafting in the middle and getting nowhere.
This was a ‘stopped clock
Is right twice a day’ win.
The trouble with Angels FO has rarely been that they “stopped.”. They kept on moving and always did wrong things. A moving clock that’s wrong can never be right.
*post 2009 of course.
what goes up must come down! Seattle is going to be swept by Houston, 3 straight losses.
I think on those Stassi highlights, every one was on the first pitch. Good results today, at least.