LA Angeles Thursday News Crash: Nothing Structural

The Angels say there is nothing structural wrong with Mike Trout and that when his back calms down he’ll be back in there. How’s this for optimism? And now, the moment we’ve all been waiting for! Jo Adell is called up once more and Monte Harrison was designated for assignment.

Tony Reagins was named the General Manager of USA Baseball at the WBC.

Several Philadelphia Phillies are going on the restricted list for the series up in Toronto because they can’t cross the Canadian border.

Not to be outdone by the Phillies, the Royals placed a whopping 10 of their players on the restricted list for their upcoming series in Toronto. The Blue Jays fired their manager Charlie Montoyo.

The closer for the Nationals, Tanner Rainey, is now on the 60 day injured list with a sprained UCL. I guess we don’t want to trade for that guy.

Chris Sale is reinstated from the injured list. Apparently most of the other Boston starters are on the 15 day IL.

Here is another basebrawl. It’s no one we know this time.

Photo credit: Rex Fregosi

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Brent
Trusted Member
4 months ago

No games are scheduled on Apple TV+ next month (the schedule just came out), which is a good thing since they’re winless in those games.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago

Oh Goodie, every 6 starts we may win, but Saurez is still pitching. Silseth is in the shuttle plan. Detmers is a keeper. OK I get it; nobody wants a complete engine overhaul. That is fine with me, some don’t like plan B-A1, raising the budget (Not going to happen anyway.). Some don’t like plan B-A2, Arte sells the team (Might be closer to reality as there is no Stadium deal close to the exit date of 2028 that we are aware of.) So “Stay the course says I” will have to suffice. Misery loves company.

Oh, we will win tonight just to gain a game farther from the crowding at the bottom of the standings and a better draft pick. It keeps’em comin’ back fer more (Please Sir, may I have more?) with a cup reaching out.

Let’s keep everybody and build on that with the draft, as long as we sell 3 million tickets though, then we are good to go, right? Keep ’em happy. 😊 

Yes, I truly think another win is in order as today we are all about helping the Yankees out with a player and a loss to the Asstros so the Yanks get Home Field Advantage in the playoffs.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
4 months ago

2028??? I’m not waiting through another 6 years of this.

Of course I will. But I don’t wanna

2GA2Join
Trusted Member
4 months ago

I don’t truly think we can know an owner’s intentions without them saying something, but enough has happened and so many of you have dissected the evidence to suggest that Arte is indeed focused on “draw to the ballpark” as opposed to winning.

I do think he wants to win, however he set a business budget first, and then tells the GM “do what you can with that.” Of course, after paying top dollar for a few marquee stars so that he has a brand. More like “I’m first taking this, now do what you can with what is leftover”. He so far has not acted like one of those owners who gets passionate about “winning it all so I can say I did” which would require spending more money.

This is concerning, because this will not end as long as he is the owner… if he truly continues on this path.

It made me think of a a dichotomy… which team would all of us rather have?….

Team 1: Our team we actually have.

Team 2: A team where we never had Trout (or was traded away early). We never had Ohtani. We never had Rendon or Pujols (not a tough sell there). But the Angels won the West in ’14, ’15, ’18 and ’20, with a Wild Card in ’16, and a World Series title in ’18.

It is hard to say it, but I’d choose Team 2.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  2GA2Join

I want us to have a team where the owner doesn’t care about butts in seats at all and never does anything like sign expensive players. I hear the team name Indians is available too, we should snag that.

2GA2Join
Trusted Member
4 months ago

Well I certainly don’t mind an owner that will spend some big bucks, just not with the angle that this guy takes.

DowningDude
Legend
4 months ago

Lineup posted:
comment image
PC Sam Blum

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  DowningDude

Uh mah gird thas so homeopathic! Perry should be smashed with a quasar! Errg real organization!

frosse
Newbie
4 months ago
Reply to  DowningDude

Anyone know why Ward is playing CF over Marsh? Marsh is way better than Ward defensively.

Last edited 4 months ago by frosse
Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  frosse

Cuz Captain Nemo and the Boyz are way smarter than us.

Angels2020Champs
Super Member
4 months ago

Anyone hear who the final HRD contestant will be?

DowningDude
Legend
4 months ago

https://www.mlb.com/news/2022-home-run-derby-participants
note in article as of 1206pm PDT : There is just one spot left to fill, and we will continue to update this story until the bracket is full.

Last edited 4 months ago by DowningDude
red floyd
Legend
4 months ago

Doesn’t matter. Manfred will rig it so Grandpa will win.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  red floyd

That would certainly be a nice jester on his part. 😀  😂  😆 

El_Duderino
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  red floyd

Yeah I figure they’ll just fill the old geezer’s baseballs with super bouncy ball cores and he’ll hit 90.

Fumid346
Member
4 months ago

Just an observation. Trout has missed 6/15 Ohtani starts, albeit he got one ab on 5/11 as a ph. 40% missed games seems very curious

Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  Fumid346

So Trout despises Ohtani?

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fumid346

Has everything to do with probability of winning. Better to rest Old Man Trout on days that Shohei starts.

YOUknowulovetheIE
Trusted Member
4 months ago

Any update on chris Rodriguez? He would’ve been a great bullpen piece this year.

Mia
Legend
Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  Mia

Well of course he did. TrAdition!

YOUknowulovetheIE
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Mia

Yikes. That’s not good.

FungoAle
Super Member
4 months ago

The one very good arm our farm system develops and he craps out.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  FungoAle

Moreno Malvado strikes again. Man that guy hates pitchers.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago

If Arte were to sell the team, what do you think would happen? Would a new owner keep the team as it is or start trading off the pieces to rebuild? This is a business, the business of winning (unless you own the Pirates) and to make the business work, you need to know when to hold them and when to fold them. Holding on means you expect Arte to seriously cough up the money to spend to get the team roster along with the scouting and development and coaching and teaching all getting transfusion of money to become a winning team for years to come. He makes money collecting Baseball cards and opening the front gates. He is clueless as to how to make a winning team.

Time is now to rebuild this broke down franchise, will it happen? Not one chance in a million, it makes money. We will all go down with mis management of the team.

DowningDude
Legend
4 months ago

Seems like one of the bannees hacked into eternal optimist Grandpa Baseball’s account. Sad day. Hope the real Grandpa can reclaim his account.

We won last night, man. As we used to say at the movie theater: “thank you, enjoy the Sho”

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  DowningDude

Grandpa was hacked !!!

Or else my commonsense and logic finally swayed him to come over to the “dark” side.

SC_Halo
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Everyone has their breaking point

rosstrade
Trusted Member
4 months ago

This can’t be the real Grandpa who is the greatest of all of the Angels fans on the board.

But, I feel your pain…..

MarineLayer
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  rosstrade

Maybe he just sees the handwriting on the wall and wants to offer constructive solutions. I salute him.

DowningDude
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  MarineLayer

Maybe we were all just joking.

DowningDude
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

🍄 s again????

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

I actually think he has other options, not just sell, tear down or spend more. I think he has, of late, pretty much left PTP be for the most part. We haven’t seen any moves where I can say “that’s pure Arte there” and the farm’s getting better and more full of pitchers, our traditional weakness. So it’s possible he sees that rout as a way to eventually loosen up his payroll.

It would also not shock the hell out of me, though it will frustrate wankers to no end, if he doesn’t feel like he has to make desperation moves, either towards a 100M payroll or a 300M payroll. All he’s really needed, both this year and in a couple of the last few years, is for roster additions and our regulars to just perform to their norms. Not replicate career years, or transform into superstars, just, if you had a .700 OPS the last four years, or a 1.35 WHIP, do that again…. but nope, most of these players don’t.

I don’t really like the idea emotionally, but in reality, he really could shuffle around the same 30-40M per off season, while prospects also arrive, and if Max Stassi doesn’t pumpkin, or Fletcher doesn’t fall apart, or Iglesias is his normal self at SS, or even Espinosa is his normal level of suck, not extra special suck… suddenly things look very different. He may be thinking this shit streak of players can’t last forever.

The other related thing that he may be holding out for is baseball players actually being good. I mean, if you look at the Astros line up, etc they are obviously better than us, but nearly 20 wins better? The fact is the Astros players get shit done. And no, it’s not because of magical unquantifiable culture dust or the right coach sitting next to them with a tablet. It’s not like the Angels players are being refused tablets and access to video of their at bats or analytics data. In fact, we keep hearing that the FOs, from JeDi onward, keep sending data to players and it keeps getting constipated in the clubhouse. In fact, has anyone heard of any of our players ever demanding data? How often do we see any of our guys looking at their last inning pitched or at bat in the dugout?

I watch the Astros…. they all just plain put in more work than I see our players doing. It has nothing to do with uncut oatmeal in the clubhouse and whether the spreadsheets are landscape, portrait or include cartoons. The Astros players hate the world and want to beat the shit out of it, so they focus and actually get their jobs done. Ours don’t. So a .240 batting average in the Astros line up gets a lot more done.

I may not like it, but I’d understand if Arte believes a 190-200M payroll should be able to get it done. This is, of course, ignoring Ohtani. He may sign Ohtani, who will largely pay for himself, and increase the payroll in the process. I’m not even sure he sees Trout and Ohtani as purely their payroll number since they supply their own money somewhat.

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago

I was thinking about past players when you brought up players “demanding data.” One person that I am pretty sure who did was Heaney, who never seemed to pan out between occasional flashes of brilliance. So we weren’t supplying him with the data that works and/or coaching that could help him make use of them appropriately? Surely, he hasn’t been the only one, if my memory about him is in fact correct.

Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago

Geez Gitcho are you and I the only ones left not advocating for a complete teardown?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phe1RV62KKs

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Count me among the anti-teardown people, although that’s more because I’m skeptical that 1) the ownership would do it right; 2) I think some/many of the teardown ideas are wrongheaded and are geared only towards tearing down for the sake of tearing down without a clear plan forward. But this season has completely wiped out any ideas I’ve had to turn the team around in short to medium term, so….

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

I have never been in favor of that and have never argued for that or anything close to it… As long as you have Trout in his prime years (yes, he is still in that range) and especially Troutani, then no, you do not “tear it down.”

The better term to use is “run it back.” They say that in the NBA and I think it fits here. I expect Walsh to have a very good year next year, a bounce back if you will. We should also have a healthy Fletch next season and I feel he will bounce back as well. Likewise Iggy and Tepera. Good closers/relievers DO sometimes have bad seasons. Quite frequently they come back the next year and rock again.

We are too close to tear it down. I mean, we were 11 games over .500 at one point. If we were as bad as some people are saying we never would have gotten to 11 games over.

Last edited 4 months ago by JackFrost
h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

FWIW, Angels during 1996-2001 looked pretty mediocre (although usually hovering just over .500), with the 2001 team looking pretty sad. Things did click just right (without any really “key” additions beyond a few supporting players like what was left of Kevin Appier) for 2002, though.

Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

There were other factors that happened as well in order for things to click just right. The development of Weber, Eckstein Kennedy & Spiezio, the signing of Aaron Sele, the trades for Fuller & Appier the ascensions of Donnelly Horseface & K Rod all played a key part in our World Series victory.

Is it possible to build a team with these type of players to actually compete and win next year? I believe so. But I have serious reservations that this front office will ever have the ability to accomplish it .

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Weber, Donnelly, Eckstein, and Wooten (was he here in 2002?)were basically products of dumpster diving. (Ie I don’t have an issue with dumpster diving, but can we actually get value from them nowadays?).

Kennedy was a basically a disappointment until 2002, and being the second piece of trade acquisition for Edmonds wasn’t going to make one too popular.

Fulmer, Sele, and Spiezio were nothing particularly special by themselves–just middling players in the grand scheme of things and not a difference maker by themselves. But they fit in with the 2002 squad pretty well and rounded out the roster to provide quality depth.

Really lucked out on Appier, whom I had written off as done for for a number of years before 2002. I was pretty amazed that we got a pretty good season out of him. Credit must be given to scouts, coaches, and/or trainers, whoever that made him “work.”

So the core of the team remained the group who were just middling for the half a dozen seasons prior. The changes came mostly in form of adding quality depth at relatively low cost to supplement that core, not adding big pieces with expectation that they would suddenly make a big difference. This my hunch that adding a few good pieces without spending too much to better supplement the existing core (basically Troutani) could make a bigger difference than not. But getting those supplementary pieces that “work” seems implausible without capable scouting and some scheme for recycling them effectively.

red floyd
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

Yes, the Woot-dog was definitely there in 2002, platooning DH duties with Brad Fullmer.

Last edited 4 months ago by red floyd
2GA2Join
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

I specifically remember that our catching fire at the end of the season was all KRod. He showed up and suddenly our bullpen couldn’t be touched. His success and fire rubbed off on others. They even changed the rules because KRod got to be on our post-season team because of a loophole that we exploited.

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

My sense is that a team with Trout and Ohtani (if healthy) should never be ruled out, but baseball is a 40-men sport and having a cast of good backups is critical. But finding 38 or more supporting pieces that fit together well is extremely hard but doesn’t really need a full scale teardown. What’s more, a full scale teardown doesn’t make the task any easier–especially if we still have to eat salaries and/or lose useful pieces while trying to tear down.

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

Lol. We do not need “38 supporting pieces.” These are players currently on our roster (though a couple are hurt, with Fletch on the verge of returning:

Taylor Ward
Jared Walsh
Patrick Sandoval
Anthony Rendon
Noah Syndergaard
David Fletcher
Raisel Iglesias
Ryan Tepera

There are probably a few more that would be considered as assets and potentially “important” pieces. I think Stassi is one of those and he is also a candidate for a bounce back season in 2023. In short, this is not a team that should be looking to “rebuild.” We have too much talent here.

I realize Thor will likely be gone, but others may be ready to step up in 2023 including Silseth, Detmers, and maybe even Bachman and/or Bush.

Right now I think it is more about as Perry has suggested “building depth.” And, as I have said many times investing energy and money in the infrastructure, (scouting, analytics, quality coaches) which clearly Arte has not been doing.

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

I didn’t say we need 38 new pieces, just that we need 38 or more supporting players other than Trout and Ohtani to round out the 40-men roster etc. Most of them are already in the organization in some form. The question was, is, and will be how well they fit together among themselves and with Triutani. Ie just stating the basic and obvious truism.

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

The idea is simply that we need some strategy for how those 38 pieces other than Trout and Ohtani fit: how will they supplement Troutani and fit with each other that the organization is committed to. That was sorely lacking with most of the big moves last several years, which were just grabbing the big shiny pieces on the market without much thinking about the whole 40-men roster. So we start this season short on OF depth that was not only obvious to most of the fans, but also the problem plaguing the team for some time recently, for example.

Everyone in the 40 men roster must have a role or several (not just baseball wise, but also “organization wise”–no point in having 5th reserve IF who can’t play OF reliably, for example. I honestly wondered if PTP really did think about contingency roles for all of 40 men roster when he puts it together this year.

Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

Will TroutOhtani and 38 plumbers get it done?

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Can plumber pitch or catch, or, as I’d been ranting about for a while, play CF?

DowningDude
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

some folks can take stuff way too literally. Heads up.

DowningDude
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Troutani?
comment image

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  DowningDude

Yes !!!!

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Cowboy26

Oh. I’ll do a complete tear down. I am pretty sick of all our players and I want them all gone. But people keep saying Arte either has to burn it down or spend a lot more…. not so sure those are his only options, especially in his eyes.

Twebur
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26
h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago

We are hoping that someone like the current Dodgers ownership would pop in. In practice, we are far more likely to have someone trying to use the team for tax writeoff scheme or something like that while gutting the team. (So, no, as much as I’m unhappy with the Moreno ownership, I’m not looking forward to its end, I am always fully expecting that there’s plenty of room for things to get worse.)

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  h27kim

I for one can’t wait to see people on here discuss their thoughts on the level of transparency, competitive fire and willingness to publicly show contrition for signings that don’t work out that they get from an owner with a name like Liberty Media.

I love how so many people on here think we’re gonna get the Dodgers, Giants or Cardinals owners if Arte sells when, honestly, I don’t think half these folks could live with the payroll limits and draconian player disappearances a team like the Cardinals employs…. much less the cheapness of the Rays.

Jeff Joiner
Editor
Super Member
4 months ago

New ownership could go a lot of different directions. I would think a new owner would come in, try to make a name, spend money, and try to win.

But, the Angels TV deal, proximity to about 9 million people, and perfect weather mean a team could be profitable without being very good.

I’d imagine any new ownership of the Angels would come in the form of a group and that group would want some assurances or contract that they could develop the surrounding area. Think Atlanta.

MarineLayer
Super Member
4 months ago

The rebuild begins. Yankees acquire Tyler Wade. Minasian gets a player to be named later or cash. Wade now goes on to become Derek Jeter 2.0.

Twebur
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  MarineLayer

Likely means Shohei will become a Yankee …..Shohei’s mom loved Ikeman.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Twebur

Wade…. he knew about…. the evil…. he had to go….. but Shohei’s mom will never forget.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  MarineLayer

my favorite line from Pinstripe Alley:

“Of course, the Yankees’ familiarity with Wade doesn’t change the fact that he’s been largely ineffective at the major league level”

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
4 months ago

…which begs the question “why did PTP cut him loose?”

admkir
Trusted Member
4 months ago

Bigger question is why did the Skanks trade to get him back

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

So Mikey is 30 – but has played so little in the last 3 seasons that the ‘wear and tear’ argument really doesn’t sit well for me. I think the Maggin and ongoing injuries are either (1) an indication that the team’s strength and conditioning programs are as poor as suspected or (2) Trout is not that injured but just needs a mental break from this awful, disappointing season.

Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

The teams strength and conditioning programs were revamped this year. Apparently they need re revamped?

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

comment image

Angel’s revamped strength and conditioning team. Arte got them for a bargain!

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I think probably a combination of 1 and 2 is where the truth lies.

MarineLayer
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Substitute wear and tear for aging over 30 body starting to break down with age. It happens at different rates for different players.

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I’ll confess that I’m worrying that Trout might be the new version (admittedly with much better/more peak years) of Fred Lynn…

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

Bite your tongue! I really hope that is wrong.

Last edited 4 months ago by Fansince1971
GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I do also hope he is wrong, but we all know he is right deep down. It hurts to watch a Mantle break down faster than Mays, Mays faster than Aaron, but it is the game and Manfred can’t make up new rules to stop it. With Trouty the time to sell is now. He has asked twice for days off that we were told about, one gave him 2 days off. He is not holding up mentally or physically. He can be rejuvenated by going back East.

Mia
Legend
Mia
4 months ago

Tyler Wade has been sent back to the Yankees

angelslogic
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Mia

Great! Now the Fo can’t bring him back here.

Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  Mia

So the Angels acquired Tyler in November 2021 in a trade for a player to be named later. After the trade today is it possible that Tyler Wade has now been traded for Tyler Wade?

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Mia

Possibly as PTBNL for himself?

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

Heh, I wound up repeating Cowboy26’s post after a few minutes….

Last edited 4 months ago by h27kim
admkir
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Mia

So Wade was tradable after all, No more confusing the two TW’s.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  admkir

too bad we don’t have Ted Williams (as he was in his prime). Which reminds me. I should go look and see how Tiger is doing at The Open.

DowningDude
Legend
4 months ago

Did anyone notice all the hitting the other way going on last night? About freakin’ time!!!! Well executed. Also some really cool bunts. Good to see.

FungoAle
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  DowningDude

Jeremy Reed gave you a shout out last night when questioned by the media about the bunt hits. Said some guy has been heckling him from the stands about getting a f-g clue.

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  DowningDude

Yeah, bout time.

I would have been nice if Reed had pushed this back in say, mid to late May.

SScott
Super Member
4 months ago

Ohtani is special. That’s my no duh statement for the day.

rosstrade
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  SScott

Absolutely, it was something special, a thing of baseball beauty, to see the Sho go out and dominate on the mound and in driving in 2.

My favorite strikeouts were the first Altuve where Sho blew a 101 fastball by him.
And then, later, froze him with a back-door slider that buckled his knees.

Thing of raw beauty…..

Mia
Legend
Mia
4 months ago

Have we considered just having Ohtani start every game?

halofansince1978
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Mia

He would probably say yes.

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Mia

He does start almost every game, just not on the mound. 😉

Mia
Legend
Mia
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

Touché

JakeTaylor
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Mia

GENIUS!

Mia
Legend
Mia
4 months ago
Reply to  JakeTaylor

I see absolutely no potential problems with this plan!

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago

“It’s just business” is all you can say, but a total rebuild and that will take 3-5 years depending how good and lucky the team is. History says it is time to move forward and reload. A team that had Mickey, Yogi as manager, Whitey, Roger, Elston Howard went to the WS series in ’64 and didn’t become winners again until ’76. They waited to long to off their aging stars. Late ’60’s Giants had Cepeda, McCovey, Mays, Jim Ray Hart, Gaylord Perry, Mike McCormick and Juan Marchial and Bill Haller and they started to clean house trading Cepeda but couldn’t pull the trigger on the rest in time and it took a lot of years to return to respectability.

I would trade Fletcher, Thor, Suarez, Stassi, Duffy, Ward, Walsh, and go full tilt rebuild mode, because it is the right thing to do right now. Fill up the FO with experience and fill the ranks with coaches that are proven. Is this tough to do, absolutely it is tough, but when to much of your resources are in 5 players and you fill in with scrubs you just can’t win either.

Well, it’s crying time, I got to trade you, and you mean so much to me,
Well, it’s crying time again, but you will be better off as you will see,
The peak has come and there is sadness to come and eyes to dry,
To watch from a distance is what hurts and there is just left a large collective sigh,

Our memories of you will never disappear, never thinking that you would ever depart,
We will not be able to repair the hole that is now open in our heart,
Well, it’s crying time, I got to trade you, and you mean so much to me,
Well, it’s crying time again, but you will be better off as you will see.

MarineLayer
Super Member
4 months ago

I would add Iglesias.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

‘I would trade Fletcher, Thor, Suarez, Stassi, Duffy, Ward, Walsh”.

The difference is none of the guys are even close to Mantle, Yogi, Whitey, Roger, Cepeda or any of the other examples you give. Unless the Angels get ridiculously lucky, they are not going to net much more than these players already are – decent MLB players just above replacement value. And do any of us really believe in the Angels player development system enough to think they can develop the young players they would receive in return?

If you want to go rebuild and net a bunch of MLB ready players who have a chance to be really good at multiple positions, there is only one player who is tradeable and fits into the Mantle, Maris, Ford, Cepeda etc level you mention and that is Ohtani. He is the only one for whom the team would receive top, MLB ready prospects and players.

So if you want to go rebuild- say goodbye to Ohtani.

The other guys will net lower level prospects/projects and maybe a couple MLB players who will be no better than the players that are being traded.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Do you believe that in today’s market there is no value for what we have? Prospects are what we should be looking for not vets. We have major league players available that will bring more than you believe they will. You don’t trade just Thor, you trade Thor Stassi and Suarez for prospects. Jedi knows how this works and he is right now rebuilding the M’s, Beane knows how this works and he is rebuilding the A’s. We need to sell now before this ship sinks to the bottom with nothing but old dead weight and can’t be fixed.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

“Do you believe that in today’s market there is no value for what we have?”

Yes – I do believe that mostly with regard to getting back valuable assets in return.

The two players with real trade value are Ward and Ohtani and maybe Walsh to some extent (although his inability to hit lefties hurts his trade value significantly).

The players you mentioned will net you a few mid level prospects.

Other teams GMs are not in the business of making the Angels better. They want players that will make their own teams better. None of the players you mentioned are clearly likely to do that so it would be mid level prospects that would come back in return.

Last edited 4 months ago by Fansince1971
GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Mid level prospects- what do you think Sandoval and Rengifo were? You can’t trade and get all the top 100 prospects out there. You can’t rebuild this team in one season. it takes 3 or 4 drafts, it takes continued trading until you get to where you have to go. Some teams fail at this, but not Tampa or Miami, the Braves pulled it off. The Dodgers rebuilt using a system the likes of which we have not seen before. But it is time to start over.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

Arte will never agree to ‘start over’.

But if this is a hypothetical rebuild – it starts with trading Ohtani and the top talent that comes back in return.

Then sure – trade the other guys for mid level prospects that are probably 40% to make it to the majors.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Fansince1971

Ohtani, Sandoval…. those are the players that will get us any prospects from a team’s top 5 at all…. even they are likely getting more like a #10 prospect plus some other stuff. Ward and Walsh = a couple top 30 prospects and some 19-20 year olds between them.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

I think that’s right. Ohtani would bring a big return I would think.

Marcotor
Trusted Member
4 months ago

Given the Angels track record with “prospects”, do you REALLY want them developing talent?

rosstrade
Trusted Member
4 months ago

Damn, this is the first time I’ve heard Grandpa sing.

It sounded kind of creaky, like my arthritic knee.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago

Rendon will never be an everyday player once again, it’s time to find out what he is really worth and cut bait and move on. Just like Albert, this was a terrible signing that will cost far more than its value to the team.

MarineLayer
Super Member
4 months ago

Thank you. This is what I believe.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

He’s worth nothing. So now what do you do?

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Package with cash and players.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

That’s compounding a bad decision. Rendon is not a bad egg like Hamilton. He is not spreading negativity. And healthy he plays a very good 3B. So why get rid of him and decent players and/or thin the farm and still have a huge salary obligation to the guy.

I think you are speaking from your gut/emotion rather than thinking this through.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Rendon is a great person, I agree. He is one play away from a season ending injury everyday he does participate on the diamond, agree? When healthy he maybe the best third baseman we have ever had. I am saying we need a new direction, the path we are on currently does not work at all. In addition, this path goes only all downhill.

Look at the Tigers, with no real set path by a weak GM they are slowly turning things around. Texas is halfway rebuilt, and it will come together, Seattle and Jedi have rebuilt very well and in 2 more years will be finished and real winners. We all saw how Houston rebuilt and revamped their minor leagues by hiring the real people. KC figured it out and got to the top, Brewers have got it down for a few years and are winning. Cubs did it, Boston years ago did it and won 2 WS. Staying stuck will not opening up the future is only going to take this franchise to nowhere and fast.

h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago

Dodgers, just up the freeway, rebuilt their farm partly by taking on bad contracts with prospects, not by packaging prospects with bad contracts and sending them away, and Rendon is not as “bad” a contract as we’d seen before. If we want to rebuild the farm, we should never trade away young talent just to cut the expenses at the present.

Last edited 4 months ago by h27kim
Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim

The Doyers rebuilt their farm system by drafting well. Very few (if any) of their developed prospects were acquired through salary relief deals with other teams.

They did acquire prospects through shrewd trades that were used later to acquire top players like Mookie Betts and Trea Turner.

Last edited 4 months ago by Cowboy26
h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Well, the point is that you package prospects with bad contracts to save money now only if you are desperate for some cash, not because you want to build productively for the future. (There were some important deals–Dodgers acquiring, while taking on Homer Bailey’s contract, among others, Jeter Downs, who was later packaged with others for Betts, but Dodgers also got a discount on prospect price for Betts by taking on Price’s contract, etc.)

Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  h27kim
h27kim
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Basically. I thought Giants were quite smart to do that trade. (Of course, Zaidi was with the Dodgers when they did some of those trades.)

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

I am fine with a rebuild but I don’t matter. Arte will never ever do it. It would cost him too much money in lost revenue. Who would go to the games? Who would give 2 sh—s about the Angels except this sad sack group? Revenue and team recognition value would plummet.

Again, though, if you are the hypothetical GM and you get the green light to rebuild – it starts with Ohtani since you will not re-sign him and by the time the team has a chance to be good he will be 32 and in decline.

Last edited 4 months ago by Fansince1971
Cowboy26
Legend
4 months ago

G Pa This comment makes no sense. He has no positive worth right now or in the future except when he plays. Unlike J Up and Grandpa he actually contributes when he is in the lineup so why would you just cut bait with 4 years left? This would be the stupidest thing Arte could do even among the long line of stupid he’s done in the past.
The Angels are 26-19 when Rendon’s been in the lineup this year and 82-73 in his Angel career. I don’t think thats a coincidence. So instead of giving up they need to suck it up and figure out a way to keep him healthy in years to come.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

You right, “He has no positive worth right now”. It will cost us to unload him, probably 20 million a season and and couple of our low priced major league ready guys. Example, Fletcher and Stassi, or Marsh and Rengifo. Time to clean house and work on a 5 year plan and hope it takes 4 years. We will never win with what we have today..

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago

We have been so fortunate to have had Trouty and Shohei at the same time in their careers. It is time to press the issue of re-signing with Shohei’s camp. If he can bring maximum return as he should, now is the time while he is Hot- Hot- Hot to trade him. The Dodgers and Padres along with the Giants would provide the best players in return for him. The Angels have a very short window to make a decision regarding their two Super-Stars and the value in return.

MarineLayer
Super Member
4 months ago

Yes.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

Since Rendon is untradeable unless the Angels eat 90% of his salary, where is the money to sign Shohei long term? If he gets a $40 mil per year payday, approximately $170 million of the $190 million budget will be gone with $120 million going to 3 players. There will be no money left and nothing ready on the farm. So you will have a $190 million 70 win team.

What you should really be hoping for is Arte increasing the budget to $230-ish million. This would allow for Ohtani and leave enough money to have a chance to fill other holes.

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Rendon is not untradeable as you say, but unfortunately it will cost about 20 per year for 4 years along with an ML player or 2. It is time to move on, period. We cannot compete with what we have assembled right now. Does not matter what it cost to unload Rendon, get rid of dead weight now, clean house and start anew.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

You are expressing the frustration that is the reality with this team. They are stuck in a hole that they probably cannot escape from due to the enormous contracts. It’s frustrating as a fan. The decision to pay Rendon such a ridiculous contract was a bad one. The risk is compounding bad decisions.

The team will get almost nothing in return for Rendon and still be obligated to the tune of at least $100m over 4 years. That is making a bad situation worse.

2GA2Join
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Agree.
My first choice is Arte increases budget big time and keeps Ohtani.
If not, second choice is he trades him and gets major assets.
Next, a bad choice would be trading him with Rendon as a package and just using Ohtani’s greatness to save us a bunch of money.
And lastly, the worst choice, to just let Ohtani walk out the door at the end of 2023.

admkir
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Most of the Ohtani money is already in the budget with the Upton money coming off the books this season and if you add in what he should get in arbitration this year your already there

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  admkir

Mmmm not really. You cannot compare a 1 year $28 million obligation to a 10 year $400 million obligation

admkir
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

My point was that the the $40 million annual salary is already there within the current budget and an Ohtani extension had been rumored at about 4-5 years not 10. The money is there, the question would be how would you build the rest of the team without increasing the budget.

2GA2Join
Trusted Member
4 months ago
Reply to  admkir

… And that last sentence says it all. We’ve been fighting that last sentence for years.
I honestly thought that this year we had found a way to do so. And look at us now. Yikes. I just don’t know if it is possible.
Don’t forget there will be raises due to some of our young players at some point in the next few years….

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago

Made of glass or fine China, Mike Trout has just been more human than Super-Star this season. While Trouty truly was other worldly when very young, he aches and pains and accepting the fact that he has changed the way he plays the game now, being afraid of diving for balls hit into CF, backing off base stealing and in general just aging fast has me saying that my favorite Angels ever needs to be reevaluated at age 31 and I’m sure that Phillies would love to have a shot at Mikey and his drawing power. You can’t be the goat if you play in less than 80% of your teams games, how is it that you will help your team? With Harper down there is room on Phillies roster. Very tough call to make and the expected back lash will be monumental for sure.

Salary restrictions prevent this team from getting better and are actually bringing it down. The Angels have proven that having 4 big salaries on the team each year is to much a burden, especially when they no longer produce like they once did.

The Upton experiment in Seattle was no where near lightning in a bottle with JUp hitting .133. Players over 30 years old are a crap shoot at best as proven by Mike Trout. Yea, Mike has been my favorite player his whole career, but it’s time to move on.

MarineLayer
Super Member
4 months ago

I reluctantly agree.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

How do you suggest “moving on” from a $40 million per year salary commitment? Who is going to take that on? And if they do, what would they give in return except a few prospects?

GrandpaBaseball
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

It’s 37.4 mil per yr. The Yankees, Mets, Phillies would all love to have Trouty, Red Sox, Dodgers, Giants would be able to take Trout on and we cannot afford him right now. It would be wonderful if Arte said here is 250 for payroll and better scouting and player development. When the opportunity came around with the cable money years ago was when a smart man would of said let’s build something here that will be long lasting. Arte was a greedy man and did not know how to hire the best and build something from nothing because he was always the boss ans as boss was the leader. MLB was over his head and he only thought of making short term profit which he was successful at. So to see him raise money for anything short of himself won’t happen.

Bring in prospects is how you rebuild. I am saying it is time now to rebuild. We will never have another Trouty. But the Trouty we knew has left the stadium too. Bloated payroll does not make a winner as we know, and it is time to sell.

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

But no one is going to take on $37.4 million and give back a bunch of top talent. Particularly for a player who has shown no ability to stay healthy over the last few seasons. Sure – if the Angels pay 50%+ of his salary, there would be takers. But what does that accomplish?

Trout is not tradeable. 4 years ago he was. He is not now.

That is why if you are not going to increase payroll and you are not going to sign Ohtani to an extension, now is the time to trade him. Before he too enters the sad but inevitable break down cycle.

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago

As recently as a couple of weeks ago nobody was saying this stuff as Mike had just pretty much single-handedly won 4 out of 5 games in Seattle against the Mariners by putting on a hitting display over the course of a series that we have never seen.

The talent is all still there. I personally believe the K’s and slumping are mostly mental, and it is intimately connected to the obvious frustration Mike feels at being yet again on not just a losing team, but one that pathetically underperforms. I mean, how do the Rangers have a better record than us? Or especially the crappy Mariners? This can’t happen. The root of the problem is in leadership and culture. That means Arte, Carpino et al.

When Maddon came aboard my hope was that his mentality could overcome the toxic culture of Arte and company. Clearly I was wrong about that. IF Trout did leave does anybody doubt that he would immediately find the Fountain of Youth, putting up his MVP numbers of old and playing close to 170 games. That is surely what would happen.

Last edited 4 months ago by JackFrost
MarineLayer
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

I agree. Almost everyone who leaves does better on their new team. Trout will be awesome as soon as he’s traded to another team.

Until Arturo is gone, we will always be a steaming pile…

So what do we do?

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  MarineLayer

Code Red ??

red floyd
Legend
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

comment image

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  MarineLayer

Accept reality and embrace the lovable losers…..or find another team worthy of the adulation.

TheCheetah
Member
4 months ago
Reply to  MarineLayer

Unfortunately, doesn’t seem to work when players leave to come to the Angels….

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  MarineLayer

comment image

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Respect the opinion, but c’mon: “believe the K’s and slumping are mostly mental, and it is intimately connected to the obvious frustration Mike feels at being yet again on not just a losing team, but one that pathetically underperforms.”

He’s slumping because the team sucks?

The excuses being made by many on CTPG for Trout’s inability to hit a high fastball are nothing short of astonishing. Trout’s dad was a pro player. I have to believe Trout takes his responsibility as a professional very seriously. He would never blame a teammate, coach, or GM for his performance. I’m much more inclined to believe the weight of a $400M contract is a source of pressure more than the other stuff being mentioned.

Trout is a part of this team. As a teammate he contributes to the success or failure of the team. When he underperforms, the team performs worse. A leader takes responsibility when the team is unsuccessful. There’s no scenario where Trout (or Ohtani) can be considered “winners” as long as the team loses. If there’s one thing fans of this franchise should have learned by now is that great individual performances do not necessarily create great team accomplishments.

Last edited 4 months ago by Senator_John_Blutarsky
2GA2Join
Trusted Member
4 months ago

Could Trout be playing hurt?
I’ve come to realize over the years that players do this all the time, and are extremely tight-lipped about it because it gives away an advantage.

If I’m right, and with how bad the standings are right now, I’d almost expect a sudden announcement of “Trout out 2 months with XXX, a nagging issue he has decided to take care of.”

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago

Trout does not have an “inability to hit the high fastball.” If that were true he would be OUT of Major League Baseball, and certainly not among the greatest ever for amassing early career WAR.

Come on BLuto, you are better than that…

Last edited 4 months ago by JackFrost
JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago

Yes, Trout has underperformed lately.

But as recently as a few weeks ago he was among the leaders in OPS, and up to mid May was LEADING all of MLB in that category. The losing has impacted him.

Just look back to that series in Seattle (which was not that long ago) and tell me that Trout can’t hit anymore.

Jeebus. Please. And shame on the people who reccd that comment.

Last edited 4 months ago by JackFrost
Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Going after people who rec a comment? Whoa.

I’m sure everyone still loves you Jack. It’s going to be okay.

JackFrost
Super Member
4 months ago

So you are telling me that Max Muncy is a winner and Mike Trout is not ?

Come on…And Adam Duvall (ring last season with the Braves) is a winner and Trout is not ? How about Chad Curtis, Jeff Manto and Luis Sojo?? They are all winners and Trout is not ?? All those guys have won a World Series ring, so I guess that makes them “winners.” No ?

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  JackFrost

Jeff Manto is a SAINT!

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Jeez Jack, three separate replies? We disagree, let it go.

DowningDude
Legend
4 months ago

he can’t … it’s a condition.

halofansince1978
Trusted Member
4 months ago

“Nothing Structural” Is Halo Code for how mAny things?

Senator_John_Blutarsky
Super Member
4 months ago

It’s code for “he may never walk again”. One of CTPG’s intrepid young interns took the following picture of Trout in the parking lot:

comment image

halofansince1978
Trusted Member
4 months ago

Only question left…will Ward take his place at ASG?

angelslogic
Super Member
4 months ago

No, unless they need a bat that’s gone stone cold. .160/.323/.200 last 7 games.

ihearhowie3.0
Super Member
4 months ago
Reply to  angelslogic

I’ll take a .323 OBP during a cold stretch

Fansince1971
Legend
4 months ago

“Nothing structural” is code for wants a longer break from baseball than he would get playing in AS game.