LA Angels Thursday News Crash: Delusional

I suspect Rob Manfred is delusional. The players and owners would have to come up with a deal in less than two weeks for the regular season to start on time and the two sides haven’t had any reasonable sit down discussions for over two weeks now. The Commissioner previously refused to concede that the start of spring training would be delayed. The delay of spring training is hurting various stakeholders over in Cactus League cities. The next meeting is supposedly at 1 P.M. Eastern Time today.

Speaking of delusional, Bruce Lee (No. Not that Bruce Lee.) got prison time for selling a bunch of fraudulently created tickets to White Sox games. U.S. District Court Judge James Kennelly called him delusional for suggesting he actually helped the team out by putting more people in the stadium to buy concessions.

Yeah, but remember we need to call them trainees at this time of year.

Noah Syndergaard gets some positive press as somebody who can come back and be an ace, that is if there is ever a 2022 season.

Terry Collins admits that the Mets knew they had problems with more than one player while Matt Harvey played there. They didn’t call it drug problems. They had the mental skills coach talk with him and told him “You have got to clean up your off-the-field situation.” Says Collins, “I can just tell you what guys were saying.”

Blake Parker testified that he bought ten pills from Eric Kay and then only took half of one of them. Eric Kay did not testify in his own defense. Closing arguments are this morning.

It’s official. Matt Shoemaker has gone to the Yomiuri Giants of NPB. Meanwhile, Felix Doubront has signed with the Saraperos de Saltillo of the Mexican League. Talent does seem to be going away to foreign leagues, although Doubront has been playing outside the U.S. for several years now.

Photo credit: Rex Fregosi

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gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

The season is doomed.
The CBA isn’t happening till June.
I am the fans and I am unhappy.
Drugs. I have an opinion.
Cheap. Evil. POBO.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ…..

I wish an Angels player would go fight in Wrestlmania or something.

halofansince1978
Super Member
2 years ago

From espn.com

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/33312891/little-progress-new-cba-latest-bargaining-session-mlb-mlbpa-sources-say

A bargaining session between Major League Baseball and the players’ union lasted just 15 minutes Thursday and produced little progress toward a new collective bargaining agreement, sources familiar with the situation told ESPN.

15 minutes…what’s the point.

The 2022 season is doomed.

steelgolf
Super Member
Jeff Joiner
Editor
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  steelgolf

I’m actually surprised. There must be something I missed. I think it was definitely proven Kay sold drugs but it also seemed like Skaggs acquired drugs from plenty of people over time.

steelgolf
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Oh, there will definitely be an appeal filed.

AnAngelsFan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  steelgolf

But appeals based on second-guessing the jury aren’t generally successful. If Kay is going to get off on an appeal it will more likely be something like bad jury instructions or an error in admitting certain evidence.

red floyd
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  AnAngelsFan

Yeah, under the Seventh Amendment, the appeals courts can’t decide facts. They can only determine if the law was applied properly.

steelgolf
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  red floyd

20 yr minimum sentence, they are going to look for ANY crack to which they can appeal.

losangel
Trusted Member
2 years ago
Reply to  steelgolf

Wow, that seems insane. The punishment doesn’t fit the crime.

red floyd
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  losangel

For what, the equivalent of second degree murder?

Disclaimer, I’m not familiar with TX law, but my understanding is that in CA, if someone dies in the commission of certain felonies, that’s Felony Murder. Steelgolf could probably address it better.

AnAngelsFan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Me too. I kind of expected him to get off on the “not in Texas” excuse or based on a doubt as to whether Skaggs might have still died with just oxycodone and alcohol.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  steelgolf

I think now the time is right for the Powers Booth GIF, “well, bye”

steelgolf
Super Member
2 years ago
admkir
Trusted Member
2 years ago

I see MLB and the players as the players being Ukraine and MLB as Russia (Manfred looks like Putin) facing off with the fans being NATO ready to impose sanctions against Russia

fyasko51
Trusted Member
2 years ago

I usually go to about 15-20 games a year. I like to spend at least $50 between my wife and I at the stadium on the must have helmet nachos, a beer or two and some other snacks. Something about treating yourself at a baseball. Anyways, it is starting to look like I wont be attending any games this year with a shortened season, that’s my way of saying Eff You to the owners. I hate how MLB thinks that they are self righteous. The NBA and NFL do a great job on making themselves look attractive to the fans. MLB does everything that they can do to make baseball less appealing to their audience.

Jeff Joiner
Editor
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  fyasko51

I pay for my Spring Training trip with money I don’t spend drinking. It is so easy to spend $40-50 on beer at the ballpark. They are like $12 each, right? More for imports.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
2 years ago

I don’t usually agree with Mike Axisa but I believe he’s right about this.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/batting-around-will-mlb-play-a-162-game-regular-season-in-2022-after-the-lockout/

He thinks it’ll be 80 games starting in July.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

That’s about right – I thought 100.

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago

this

History tells us that things will look dire for a long time, then the two sides will get together and hammer out a deal in like 36 hours.

RexFregosi
Super Member
2 years ago

NCAA College Baseball starts this weekend – go see a game – plenty of solid progams around. Minor League Camp opens next week too.

Personally, i’m not expecting ANY spring training in AZ this year. They’ll settly closer to April 1st than March 1st i think and just do ST like they did in Jun 2020, in MLB parks.

GrandpaBaseball
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  RexFregosi

Can the MLB Owner’s start ST with just minor leaguers? What would stop them from doing so if it is allowed?

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

The Owners are currently arguing to eliminate hundreds of minor league players jobs and don’t want to pay them during Spring Training. So why would they then do an about face and invite them to Spring Training? That’s more wishful/magical thinking.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fansince1971
RexFregosi
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I understand Minor League Camp to be a separate thing and from what i’ve seen, that camp is indeed opening next week.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  RexFregosi

Right – but his question was related to a major league Spring Training at the invite of the owners.

GrandpaBaseball
Legend
2 years ago

With it appearing to us that both sides are very much dug in that neither side will make a move because the opposing side will interpret that as a weakness. Owners feeling intitled because of the values that the clubs are valued and want maximum return. The highest cost in running a big business is in payroll, so by not raising payroll or even cutting payroll is the goal. Employees look at not what they have but what the owners have and consequently want additional benefits.

Fans are not in the equation, but we never believed we would be. But I do believe that 3 results of this lockout will come about. First attendance will be irreversibly changed as the sport becomes irrelevant to even more people. Second both radio and television rating will continue to plumet. Both Owner’s and Player’s will be looked upon as the greedy not caring about the fans.

This situation is really not going to end well with either side really winning.

Now back to the Olympics……. 💰  💰  💀 

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago

I’m a huge baseball fan but the good thing is…March Madness will fill my cup of joy. The best tournament in the world. World Cup is a close second. Let MLB sit it out this year. I’m good with that.

GrandpaBaseball
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  FungoAle

I’m definitely with you on March Madness. The best of all tournaments for me since 1966. Can’t wait. I will miss MLB, but with Madfred ruining the game it maybe that I will not miss it as much as I have in other strike years. There is always summer lawnmower racing to turn to.

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  FungoAle

Most importantly, don’t need to hear people screaming “RAMS HOUSE” anymore.
Why are Ram fans so insecure about their home? Is it because they literally share it with the Chargers? Or, the fact that almost every home game has a 50/50 split in fans?

Hear it and think of Eddie Murphy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AIqYVZ7gc

Marcotor
Trusted Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Twebur

So all the whining that goes on here about other teams fans in Angel Stadium is silly too, right? Right?

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Marcotor

I’ll stop screaming “Angels House”…..if we play this season.

halofansince1978
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Twebur

Goonie Goo Hoo!!!

PedroCerrano
Super Member
2 years ago

I’ve been a hardcore baseball fan since the 70s and never really considered not watching after the other labor stoppages but this time around may prove to be different. I’m just really over the millionaires vs. billionaires stuff and it makes me feel like I feel with some many things in politics and the press lately. I don’t what’s real but I know I’m being either manipulated or flat out lied to.

BruinsAngelsKings
Trusted Member
2 years ago

Ahhhhhh, the joys of arguments between billionaires and multi-millionaires.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

Delusional is anyone who thinks there is any real chance at a deal or that the owners will end the lockout before Opening Day. The two sides are dug in – both want to win something like 90-10 on the crux issues. That is not the environment that deals get done. There is no willingness to compromise- the two sides hate and are distrustful of each other.

There will be a moment in time when this is all done and there is a new CBA. But that is going to take real compromise which requires a willingness to compromise on the tough issues. That will not exist for a while – maybe in May or June. But also, maybe, after a lost season.

Best thing to do is prepare for a baseball-less season and then hopefully be pleasantly surprised.

halofansince1978
Super Member
2 years ago

Maybe at todays meeting the two sides can agree on at least a temporary agreement so Spring Training can start by the end of next week….JUST DO SOMETHING!!!

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago

The owners can end the lockout at any time. They hold the keys to end this.

They can let the players come to Spring Training (the trainees too).

They could agree to operate under the old rules for the season, or just a few months.

halofansince1978
Super Member
2 years ago

Affirmative…if nothing else for we fans.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

Ha! Fans are lowest priority for both sides.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

Other than magical thinking, why would the Owners end the lockout? The lockout is the source of all their leverage as players are not being paid. You think the owners will just remove it and then have to start paying huge salaries and expenses- I don’t see that happening. Any leverage the Owners have in these negotiations would be lost. The lockout will not end until there is a new CBA in place.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I didn’t say they would. I said they could, and only they can. The players cannot end this unilaterally – the owners can.

If there is no season – who gets the blame? Hard to argue it is the ‘greedy’ players when they aren’t allowed in the building, aren’t getting paid, aren’t being allowed to train.

At some point (soon), this becomes a real PR game, where lockout vs strike matters.

(And why should the owners end the lockout? Because they don’t earn money without a sport either – and they lose all value in the franchise as well).

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

The owners position is they are losing money operating. Is that true? – who knows. But if that is there position, a lockout and no salaries is something they can live with. And no one really believes the fans won’t be back – eventually.

There is plenty of blame to go around. Anytime a negotiation is entered into by both sides from the perspective of ‘winning’ the parties can all be blamed.

Negotiations require compromise. If the parties are unwilling to do so, they are both at fault.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

They are not paying the salaries now because they don’t usually pay in the offseason.

But is it true that the owners can lock out the players and not pay them moving forward? That screams breach of contract to me. I think they are on the hook for the players salaries moving forward – and that means they only recoup that money if games are played.

(And I don’t know anyone that buys the argument that the owners are losing money on the deal. They won’t show the Union the books, and that smells fishy for sure.)

From the NY Times:

Is anyone missing a paycheck?Not yet.

Players don’t earn paychecks or service time in the off-season or spring training, during which they get allowances. Paychecks and service time start in the regular season, which is slated to begin on March 31. (During a lockout, according to the union, clubs are obligated to pay any signing bonuses, deferred salary and any other payments that were earned before the lockout began.)

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

Owners are on the hook for pre-lockout payments and obligations which were due and payable when the lockout began such as a signing bonus which was earned at the time of signing.

Future payments such as for playing baseball on dates post-lockout are not due and there is no obligation to pay. During the lockout, players salaries for baseball not played are not paid. It’s not a breach of contract because the contracts to pay require consideration on the other side – ie performance. With a lockout in place due to no CBA, the players are not performing and therefore the obligation to pay salaries for post-lockout items like 2022 salary is extinguished.

Thus the owners are not obligated to pay 2022 players salaries while the lockout is ongoing. As part of the CBA, the players might ask for retroactive salary for any games missed during the 2022 season. But without agreement on that issue, salaries will not be paid during the lockout and owners are under no obligation to do so.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fansince1971
matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I think the players probably have better lawyers than that. Many players have guaranteed contracts – and the owners deciding to not stage the games shouldn’t let them off the hook for paying for them.

Further, on MLB’s own website (still):

Players who obtain Major League contracts — either via free agency or extensions — are guaranteed the full amount of money promised by those contracts.

I don’t know where you think the logic is in your argument.

For example, you state this:

With a lockout in place due to no CBA, the players are not performing and therefore the obligation to pay salaries for post-lockout items like 2022 salary is extinguished.

The lockout is not due to no CBA. The lockout is MLB attempting to put pressure on the negotiations. The owners cannot simply nullify the contracts of the players.

This isn’t a situation in which the players are ‘not performing’ but rather where the owners are not allowing them to fulfill their contracts. As long as that is the case, no court would sustain the owners not meeting their financial obligations.

Last edited 2 years ago by matthiasstephan
gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

I’m not sure, and I can’t recall where, but I’m fairly certain I read that the player’s don’t get paid for games that don’t happen from a CBA dispute. I read it when this was all getting ready to kick off and I could be totally remembering wrong stuff, but the sense I got was that the contract with a player is because of the MLBPA and CBA, so the MLBPA/CBA issue supersedes it…. the fact that a player, even if he wants to, can’t renegotiate his contract in a way that diminishes the actual money going to him and on to the MLBPA.

But I could be totally bonkers wrong about this.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

You are correct. I understand where it doesn’t seem ‘fair’ but it is the reality. Owners do not have to pay salaries during the lockout.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fansince1971
Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

100% disagree. Here is a quote from an article about the subject…..

“The issues will come to a head though if the lockout extends into the regular season, a circumstance where players will not be paid their salaries…..Should the stoppage extend beyond March, the MLBPA will help players out with medical insurance issues.”

If the lockout extends into the regular season, the owners have no obligation to pay the contracts.

Here’s the article where that quote comes from. The article takes the position that it is unlikely there won’t be a new CBA before the regular season – but it was written a few months back.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/en.as.com/en/2021/12/02/mlb/1638457741_382816.amp.html

Another quote – this time from CBS:

“During the lockout players will receive any signing bonus or deferred salary payments, though they are not paid their base salary should the lockout extend into the regular season.”

Last edited 2 years ago by Fansince1971
matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I read that as the owners can defer paying (until the games are back on), but not that they can get out of paying the money ever.

So, sure, they can lock them out and not pay. They don’t usually pay now anyway. But if they never let them back in – they still owe the money. That would go to court, and the contracts are guaranteed.

ihearhowie3.0
Super Member
2 years ago

I suspect both sides are willing to wait until Opening Day to get missed to put pressure on the other. The lack of urgency in even scheduling meetings shows where this is headed.

If they were meeting everyday but striking out it would be one thing. To be blowing off meetings altogether is grim.

My bet is season starts around Memorial Day as the new Opening Day