LA Angels Weekend News Crash: Hello darkness my old friend

Congratulations to the 2021 World Series Champion Atlanta Braves. They put an absolute beatdown on Houston in game 6 to claim their first crown since the days of the mullet.

The greatest storyline of the Series has to be baseball lifer Brian Snitker getting a ring. His journey to this point has been arduous at best.

Now we turn our clocks back so it is dark before dinner but there is no baseball. Hello darkness my old friend, indeed. Simon and Garfunkel could be perfectly describing the MLB rumor mill with the line “people talking without speaking.” And those days are upon us.

Already teams and players are picking up and declining options and Qualifying Offers are due Monday. Daily links will do their best to keep up on these and I’ll recap the decisions that are major or could impact the Angels here.

Should the Angels offer the Qualifying Offer to Raisel Iglesias? One writer sure thinks so. Please debate down below.

After taking a look at the other right handed relief options, I’m actually OK with the decision either way. With as mercurial as relievers can be, a market including Jansen, Graveman, McHugh, Knebel, Tepera, and more means a solid closer should be available. Building that bridge to the closer is the important part IMO.

I’ve linked it before and I will again, but take a look at the starting pitchers on the market. Just realize we likely three from this list and two from the relief lists (best lefties are linked below).

Of course it takes a front office to run an off season and the Mets are still working on theirs. They’ve been turned down more than Lewis Skolnik at prom time and have now started looking at Billy Eppler.

The fallout from the Series is already starting. Did Carlos Correa play his last game as an Astro and is this the end of an era in Houston?

Perhaps the most interesting off season could take place in Oakland. They’ve already lost manager Bob Melvin to the Padres and they have a huge arbitration class. Where do they go from here?

One particular player of interest to the Angels should be Andrew Chafin, who declined his part of an option and is now a free agent.

Chafin is the jewel of the left handed relief market. Here’s a pretty complete list. Honestly I am very intrigued at adding Kim as a multi inning buy IF we go glove first at shortstop. Give me C-Rod and Kim for twice a week for 2+ innings and we can eliminate a lot of Slegers type appearances.

Some stories will carry over to 2022. Like Trevor Bauer in LA. His decision to opt into $32 million nobody wants to pay him was truly the biggest no brainer of all time.

Bauer’s case reminds us that the wheels of justice turn glacially. Former Angels staffer Eric Kay’s trial for the 2019 death of Tyler Skaggs has again been delayed. He’ll face the jury in January of 2022.

The end of each season also brings about the ends of careers. Giants great Buster Posey decided to call it a career after 12 brilliant seasons. He’s one of my all time favorites and a sure fire Hall of Fame player.

Enjoy your weekend. Link what I missed. For you fight fans, I’m thinking Canelo in 9 via a referee stoppage.

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anewfoundthrice
Trusted Member
2 years ago

I finished watching “The Last Dance” a week ago, a documentary on Michael Jordan and the bulls dynasty. I’ve been wanting to post this, but now that playoff dust has settled it needs to be said. I for one am sick of all the “wasting Mike trout’s prime” talk and now it’s moved to shohei. We need to go all in next season, resign raisel, pick up two of the top free agent SP’s. Just really go for it. I was getting jealous of the pippen/Jordan best players in the league watching that series, while they win everything. The modern day duo to those two could really be trout and ohtani!! The world needs to see trout and ohtani win a world series, or three.

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago

So in the future Ohtani will grow to resent and hate Trout…..or, is Trout the one who grows to resent and hate Shohei? Which one is Jordan in your……dream?

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

I just finished watching Bring It On. We need to quit screwing around and get some cheerleaders. And a giant animatronic ape for a rally monkey. I also watched Top Gun. Two words. Jet. Fighters. Who needs pitching when you can go ballistic and then buzz the tower?

We could, realistically, at least compete for a title every year if we’d just sign up a 260 million dollar payroll. That’s like 3 F-35 fighters, way cheaper than my Top Gun idea. You could probably get some ugly cheerleaders for like 50 bucks though, so that’s still a go.

MarineLayer
Super Member
2 years ago

Fletcher doesn’t get Golden Glove. No surprise another deserving Angel gets snubbed.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago

This is probably the most significant information concerning the Angels today:

https://twitter.com/JeffFletcherOCR/status/1457476247068442629

Last edited 2 years ago by Cowboy26
WallyChuckChili
Legend
2 years ago

Pirates just DFAd him so why hasn’t Jose Soriano been offered back to us?

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago

He has to clear waivers first, and then the Angels would have the option to pay 50K to get him back (if I remember correctly). I don’t know how far along in that process Soriano is.

Would be nice to have him back though – he seems like a legit arm.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago

The season’s over. He would have already been offered back to us by now. Maybe we turned them down?

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago

Soriano was injured at the time he was a  Rule 5, he was placed on the the Major League injured list and had to stay there a minimum amount of days, 90-days, he no longer is subject to any roster restrictions, no longer has to be offered back. The dude is under the TJ knife yet again and will miss yet another year. Hard Pass.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  FungoAle

Here’s what the MLB glossary says:
A Rule 5 Draft pick can be placed on the Major League injured list, but he must be active for a minimum of 90 days to avoid being subject to the aforementioned roster restrictions in the next campaign.

Ok so then based upon the above language he will be offered back to the Angels for $50 large after he clears waivers. We do not have to put him on our 40 man and I doubt anyone will take a chance on Rule 5 drafting him this December so I wonder if Cheap Arte will allow Perry to take him back.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Yeah, he only made two minor league starts and was not on the MLB roster. I was thinking they could park him on the injured list all year long and break any commitment to return him. But I am missing where in the above language you see that the Angels get first dibs if he clears waivers?

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  FungoAle

Here’s my interpretation:
Because Soriano wasn’t active for minimum of 90 days the Rule 5 commitment was not fulfilled and starts over for 2022. Since the Buccos(My PA Grandma used to call the Pirates that nickname) elected to waive him it would be construed as if they had waived him this year or next year. Any team who picks him up would have to also have to keep him on the 26 man roster next year too fora minimum of 90 days (not likely) . So if he clears waivers he gets offered back to the LAAofA

Last edited 2 years ago by Cowboy26
gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Cowboy26

Yeah. Yeah? Ye? I think I get it. The “active for a minimum of 90 days to avoid being subject to the aforementioned roster restrictions in the next campaign.” means that he’s still under magical rule 5 rules. I think he has to be offered back to us before he can be sent down/become a MiLBFA. I don’t know if we then need to keep him on the 26 man or just send him to a horse farm to find himself and see if he can still throw a baseball.

Given the huge pile of pitching the Angels have coming in, plus the dumpster pile that will take up some of the AAA roster space, I don’t see the Angels taking him back if he has to be given a roster spot anywhere. Just call him, wish him well, maybe invite him to work out at our facility when he starts rehab (if that’s legal). If he looks healthy in a year and is FA sign him.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago

If he is given back, he doesn’t need to be given a spot on the 26-man (he was ours before the Rule 5 draft).

We just need to decide whether he is worth 50K and picking up the cost for his surgery/rehabbing in the hopes his arm survives the multiple surgeries.

Seems pretty cheap of a lottery ticket in my head, but I don’t control the purse.

Christianhanson
Trusted Member
2 years ago

QO to Raisel

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago

Nice, thanks for the report.

Christianhanson
Trusted Member
2 years ago
Reply to  FungoAle

of course! Don’t believe it is official yet

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago

Players Receiving Qualifying OffersBy Mark Polishuk | November 7, 2021 at 4:05pm CDT
Today is the last day for teams to issue qualifying offers to eligible free agents. Teams must make their decisions by 4pm CT, but the identities of some QO free agents have already been reported or even officially announced by their respective clubs. We’ll update this list throughout the day, but here are the players who already know will be getting the one-year, $18.4MM deal…

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Twebur

I still cannot get over the Mets offering Conforto a QO. Good god, he’ll jump on that and Thor will too.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  FungoAle

Yeah. Though if both of them play anywhere near their ceiling for a combined 37M it will be a savings of about 12M and Thor has market scarcity working for him. He’s actually in a good spot. Take the QO, become FA next year. Decline, he’ll still get a contract, hell Kluber got one last year. No matter what he does he’s golden as long as he pitches fairly well this year.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago

Unless Thor thinks, despite very little track record post-surgery, he can command a good long(er) term contract.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago

Looks solid. I personally don’t mine Rasiel for 1-year $18.4M. It is only about $3M more than his AAV projection. But my guess is that he’ll reject it unless he has jitters about the CBA.

So far, no Jon Gray, which is nice too. He would have declined it for sure and been subject to compensation.

Last edited 2 years ago by FungoAle
Eric_in_Portland
Legend
2 years ago

I bet Perry had to convince Arte. I can see Arte saying “can’t you just sign another reliever off the waiver wire?”

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

I bet Perry and Arte had crepes this morning. Arte totally strikes me as a savory guy while I bet Perry had blueberry cause everyone knows that people who are mere puppets love blueberry flavor.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago

What about Lingonberries? Don’t winners love Lingonberries?

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Cowboy26

They are so tart. If you eat them you are obviously a real man.

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago

Mmmmmmmmm……delicious, manly Scandinavian cowberrie jam

Also known as foxberries or cowberries, these tart red berries can be eaten raw or they can be processed into delicious lingonberry jam or syrup (popular in Sweden and other Scandinavian countries).

JackFrost
Super Member
2 years ago

Blueberry puppets, ha ha.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

That’s good news!

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

QO deadline come and gone. I am increasingly convinced Arte will do nothing until there is more clarity on the CBA.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I think there’s another hour. There’s been very little news from anywhere. Mets, Blue Jays, not much else. But I think you’re right about Arte.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago

IF Arte was hung about about the CBA, he would have traded Rasiel at last years trading deadline.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

For the success of the teams benefit, extending a QO seems to be irrelevant to the CBA.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago

T minus 5 hours until D Cell D Day ( 4 PM CST)……

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Don’t hold your breath…..

Although honestly I do not see any strategic reason to not extend a QO to Raisel. If he says no and signs elsewhere at least the Angels would get a draft pick…..errrr that’s under the expiring CBA. Who knows what the new one will bring on that issue.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

But since this deadline falls before it expires, teams are bound by it, right?

I agree, I do not see a scenario where we don’t extend Raisel and don’t extend him the QO (for him to deny or accept). 1 year at 19M is high, but reasonable given his record, and at relatively low risk. If he turns it down, we get the draft pick, which is also good.

I am hoping the delay is because they are negotiating now.

JackFrost
Super Member
2 years ago

Last paragraph is exactly where I am at too.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

Truth be told, I am not sure how the new CBA would effect these QOs. My presumption is you are right – a 2021 QO still has its same impact even under a new CBA which might eliminate the QO. If not, a 2021 QO would mean almost nothing right now and that lack of certainty would hurt both sides. But I don’t know for sure.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Seems to me they are working on an extension. The FO probably feels it is more genuine to work out a deal prior to stamping a QO on his forehead. Honestly, could not have pitched better last year and if Perry has a brain, he knows the bullpen was the Achilles heal. Would not make sense to subtract the best arm out there in the rebuild.. I’m still leery of a 3-year deal but not my money. Bring him back.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
2 years ago

QOs are starting to come in. Syndergaard, Conforto, Robbie Ray, Semien. Not Matz, if we’re interested.

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago

add him to the list…..
Dodgers Decline Option On Joe KellyBy TC Zencka | November 6, 2021 at 2:12pm
The Los Angeles Dodgers have declined the $12MM club option for Joe Kelly for the 2022 season, per the team. The right-hander will receive a $4MM buyout and head to the open market, though a return to LA is certainly a possibility.
Kelly was hurt in his last appearance this postseason after serving as an opener. The pain “stemmed from the musculocutaneous nerve in Kelly’s arm,” per Jorge Castillo of the Los Angeles Times. He is expected to resume a throwing program in six weeks, so he should have no problem getting ready for opening day.
Kelly and his mustache had a solid season in relief for the Dodgers. The 33-year-old appeared in 48 games, tossed 44 innings, and put up a 2.86 ERA/3.08 FIP. The power righty picked up a pair of saves and 13 holds while striking out a robust 27.5 percent of batters and walking a league-average 8.2 percent. He’ll be an attractive option for a contender given his postseason and high leverage experience.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Twebur

I’m not high on Kelly, hope the Angels don’t go there.

2002heaven
Super Member
2 years ago

comment image
He’s a FA.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  2002heaven

So is he…. I’d rather have him….
comment image

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago

…..personally, Taylor’s beard is heavier and thicker. That means more testosterone, that means more manly-man power. That means he’s better….its science.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago

Now you’re just Chasen …

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  2002heaven

You want a 31 year old OF with a career OPS+ of 109?

Why, because he had a career year in 2021, posting an OPS+ of 110?

(Wait, that isn’t better, is it?)

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  2002heaven

He’ll get too much money to only disappoint. Good player though.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Unfortunately His defensive metrics at shortstop are not kind.

Last edited 2 years ago by Cowboy26
gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

He’d be a good fit on a team like the Braves, where he can spell 5 different guys and cover any of them who get hurt. Would get 450 ABs probably, but the team would never lean on him.

I think the Dodgers and other smart teams will let him pass by though simply because paying a premium for a very Taylor Ward like 105 OPS+ isn’t wise. Sure, he’s more versatile and that’s cool, but Ward was worth about 1 less WAR than Taylor over the same number of innings last year. Who wants to pay an extra 10M a year for that? Chris Taylor is a good but replaceable player at the height of his financial asking price. I think he’s exactly the kind of luxury a team pays for when they want to lock down a WS bid with the best depth money can buy…. not good for a team that can spend that money on two bullpen arms.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago

And a draft pick

DMAGZ13
Trusted Member
2 years ago

Regarding discussion below, it’s almost like the NBA where the postseason and regular season are no two completely different games. Regular season you need to eat innings and have a couple of aces to kill any losing streaks. Your lineup should be tailored knock out a starter earlier than usual at least a couple games in a series via the HR, but hot / cold is ok.

In the playoffs, it’s an inning by inning matchup fest where aces are pulled to simply limit runs. Here it’s all bullpen and starters are just openers. Maybe one or two aces get hot, and you ride them. But that’s only if your team has the lead and you can afford the risk.
For us, I’d say that means build a bullpen first, get two quality top pitchers to support ohtani, let it ride like that.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  DMAGZ13

There aren’t a lot of ‘top aces’ out there (or whatever the term). There are not 60 such players, or even 30. Not one per team, let alone two or three.

We need 5 competent pitchers who can pitch 5-6 consistent innings. We need enough solid bullpen pieces to get those last 9 outs each night, and enough to rotate them through.

‘Ace’ is a luxury. There aren’t really guys who pitch CG SO on a consistent basis anymore – and our nostalgic looking for the next Nolan Ryan is doing a disservice to those GMs that put together a club.

Grienke is no longer that ‘ace’. The Astros did well with McCullers and a few rookies making good (Garcia; Valdez). Odorizzi didn’t help a ton.

Braves have Morton and Fried, but then rookies like Anderson and Davidson plus Soroka (if returns healthy).

The Padres are full of aces – Musgrove, Snell, Clevinger, Darvish – but it hasn’t paid off.

The Dodgers have Buehler, and maybe bring back Kershaw, plus Urias, Gonsolin, Price. Good enough? They still went shopping for pitching.

Yes, we need pitching. We have Ohtani, Sandoval, Suarez (both of the latter young, and look like Valdez/Garcia in Houston). We can hope Canning, Detmers, CRod take steps forward.

We need two more guys – hopefully one of those that can stabilize a rotation – in a losing streak – or pump people up – when things are going well. I think Stroman can be that guy, just as much as Scherzer – and everyone has their up and downsides.

2002heaven
Super Member
2 years ago

Julio Urias?
recorded the final out in the 2020 WS vs TB then followed that up with MLB’s winningest pitcher with 20 wins. We just need to scout and develop good stuff live arms and stop ending up with Andrew Wantz and Packy Naughton…….that would help a lot!

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  2002heaven

Again, I don’t understand what you are saying. Is Urias the entire Dodgers rotation?

Sure, he was good. So was Beuhler. The Dodgers didn’t stand pat with two ‘aces’ – they wanted more (and they didn’t win the WS, so…)

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  2002heaven

Hey 2002 Did you follow our draft last year ? Do you really think that we were targeting Packy Naughtons & Andrew Wantz’s?

JackFrost
Super Member
2 years ago

But DMAGz makes a good point above about needing a couple of “innings eaters” during the regular season. Above all you need to avoid burning out your bullpen by June or July.

For this reason (in addition to just plain quality) Scherzer is a really valuable commodity; he’s able to consistently give you 6-7 innings. The playoffs as he mentioned are quite and different beast, and this is why we saw Max pulled after 5 innings etc. So, I do disagree with you a little bit. I think Scherzer would really help us by saving our bullpen in the regular season, in addition to being a good slump buster etc.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Is he the only one that can do this? Can he keep doing it for 3-4 more years? If so, at what cost (not just money – but the opportunity cost of putting all the money in that pot)?

I don’t know the answers. Maybe we should get him. I worry about the cost and his age – but he may be Ryan and can do this, at this elite level, another 4 years and be worth another 120M.

But yes, 2 guys that can consistently go 6 innings would be a godsend.

Thing is – over a season that means 6 innings times, say, 30 games. So, 180 innings pitched. Only 20 pitchers did that in 2021. (Not Grienke, Not Stroman, Not Scherzer).

h27kim
Trusted Member
2 years ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Going for depth with lots of “interesting but flawed” arms has been being tried for a long time, though–in a sense, back all the way to 2000 or so. I often wondered if the key difference between Slegger, Guerra, etc vs Donnelly, Weber, Pote, and so forth isn’t so much that “dumpster diving” is a flawed strategy, as much as a falloff in the quality of scouting, player development, and coaching. You are not just going to find “good” players in the dumpster. You find players with upsides that your organization can develop and put to use in roles where they can be effective and whose downsides can be hidden. I’m not sure we are doing halfway decent job on this dimension, at least as far as bullpen goes. (I think the big problem with 2002’s antics is less that they are annoying as much as they imply that bringing all these interesting but flawed players who did well elsewhere would have somehow worked out in Anaheim. I have no confidence whatsoever that that would have been the case for most of them.). I remain convinced that depth moves are championship moves, if they are paired with good development and utilization strategies. Having another good starter or two would be nice, but not that essential. Having 3-4 more good arms in the pen with a working strategy for employing them for maximum combined effectiveness, I think, is essential.

JackFrost
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  h27kim

I really think you need both starters and relievers. Though a deep and strong pen does somewhat diminish the need for a solid 1-5.

But I do agree with you about the importance of development. Our org has really gone down in that regard. Maybe we are ready for an upswing. I mean, C-Rod and Sandoval have showed alot of promise, and it is not unreasonable to give at least some credit to our coaches. Again, I think you are correct in that bringing in talent is only one part of the equation. The Giants for instance have created a team environment/culture where marginal talents can really improve and flourish.

Ideally that is what we need to do, or return to. That then allows you to occasionally splurge on a really expensive FA who is a “sure thing”

h27kim
Trusted Member
2 years ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Credit has to go where it’s deserved and the Angels did turn Cobb around and developed Sandoval (worth mentioning since Cobb sucked with Balt and Sandoval was a marginal prospect with Hou.). But one should like to see more success stories where we turn others’ trash into something useful though….

Last edited 2 years ago by h27kim
FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  h27kim

Cobb actually discovered his sinker the second half with Baltimore in 2020. His GB to FLY ratio had spiked to a level not seen since 2012. Alex parlayed that success in 2021 right out of the gate. If anything, credit goes to Perry for taking a chance. I don’t think the Angels turned anything around..

h27kim
Trusted Member
2 years ago
Reply to  FungoAle

Good point. But somebody in the FO does deserve credit for turning “interesting but flawed” to results, which was really my point.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  h27kim

Understood, Cobb was a success acquisition for the FO, no doubt.

2002heaven
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  h27kim

That’s mostly my sarcasm and sometimes emotional ire at our many times of gross ineptitude. Dumpster diving isn’t a bad thing when you’re the Oakland A’s, Giants, and Brewers who are all quite good at it. No more than a DIY Channel house flipper finding rundown 90 yr old houses and fixing them up. Billy Eppler tried to go that same route and we all found out that we suck very badly at it.. But when you work for a owner who meddles and many times hamstrings the GM by signing power hitters to absurd long term and expensive deals, then all is left is crumbs and bones after his destructive playtime..
That was the whole premise behind the Moneyball movie with Chad Bradford, David Justice, and Scott Hatteberg. Also some interesting reading about the TB ray’s success is since they’re a small market team that they have the autonomy to try new and creative tactics that wouldn’t fly with the Yankees and RS in particular.

Last edited 2 years ago by 2002heaven
Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  2002heaven

Moneyball was a book dumbass. (Which is now almost 20 years old but still great read) The Movie was Brad Pitt’s Hollywood spin

2002heaven
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Oh yes, it’s the Cowboy weighing in
what is it now? LOL!!! 😆  😜  You didn’t make any kind of point to debunk I see……..Have a nice day and don’t forget to set your clocks back””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””””

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  2002heaven

To When? 2002? When are you going to stop living in the past?

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

My take on Raisel is it’s a no brainer that he needs to be signed. He’s the best relief pitcher the team has had in 7 seasons. It’s a ream desperate for relief pitching. It has to get done.

That said, the upcoming lockout/strike is a variable. Any other off-season, I think the team takes care of Raisel quickly. But I’m not certain Arte will agree to do anything until there is more clarity as to whether there will be a 2022 season and, if so, when it will begin.

I believe deep down that it is not business as usual for the owners. They are preparing for a balls-to-the-wall fight. In that environment, I’m not certain anything gets done free agency wise. Particularly for an owner like Arte who has been known to be as vindictive as he is impulsive.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fansince1971
gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Fansince1971

I’m cloudy on this issue, may be totally mistaken, but I’m not sure why the CBA is a huge impediment to FA signings.

I understand that the CBA may make adjustments to some details of how FAs are dealt with, as well as when players can become FAs or become arb eligible. Also, the Lux Tax and possible spending floor are an issue for some teams, but not most of them.

But in the case of many free agents it seems like the CBA just isn’t going to change much. If you are a player who is expected to make 15M a year, and you know the team that lands him will have to offer at least 3 years, maybe 4, what is going to change about that situation from one CBA to another? I can see the new CBA changing how I spend on fringe FAs, my 3rd bullpen option or a marginal infielder, but not core pieces.

If I was gonna pay Raisel now, why wouldn’t I pay him the same under a new CBA?

And what aspect of CBA negotiations is going to make me so vindictive that I just decide I don’t want a closer? Sure, I may be vindictive about FAs like Hambone. I may think crossing the Lux Tax threshold is stupid (there is actually a solid argument that it is). I guess that’s vindictive maybe? But none of that would change my wanting to re-sign a closer from September to January.

If they don’t re-sign Raisel it will be for the standard reasons; Some other team offered more than we want to pay, he wants to play some other place, or our FO decides they want to allocate the money he demands to more pressing needs like an aging 1B/DH to replace Pujols.

I’m not clear on how the CBA situation warps all of this, other than just players and owners may get into a collective huff and decide not to do business pre-lock out. But that won’t be specific to one team and still doesn’t change the fact that Carlos Corea will be expensive.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

To me, uncertainty plays into the analysis. If all of the things you mention are, at best, unclear at this point, and if it’s uncertain if there will even be baseball in 2022, why not wait until the new deal is done to begin to analyze what you are willing to spend and on what players. I think it would be natural for an owner like Arte to question what the rush is to sign free agents prior to a new CBA.

That said, I am less sure on the issue of extending a QO to Raisel and how that might be affected by the pending fight. Given the deadlines that still exist, maybe that is handled differently. We will see.

My gut tells me that an owner like Arte is more likely to decide to do nothing until there is more certainty about 2022. I suspect his focus is on the upcoming fight as opposed to what the team looks like in 2022 or 2023.

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

I’ll add that if there is no deal by Dec 1 (which there will not be) the players will almost certainly be locked out. That does not really hurt them until the season starts because salaries are paid in installments over the season- not the off season.

All of that is to say that if the Owners perceive their leverage to start when players do not collect their pay, then they will not look to make a deal until after the season would have begun and paychecks are not delivered.

Sadly it’s the young and lower paid players who will suffer no paychecks nor benefits as opposed to the multi-millionaire veterans. The owners hope for dissention in the ranks which can only be caused by a long drawn out strike.

The players hope to gain leverage by denying owners a revenue stream and threatening their business (no baseball) which they hope will cause the owners to eventually split (there is precedent for this).

All of this is to say that from a leverage standpoint, and given the current anger, distrust and solidarity on both sides, I do not expect a deal until both sides feel pain. That could easily be May/June 2022.

The uncertainty of what a new deal will look like, as well as the Owners desire to put forward a unified front at this point, will definitely keep the hot stove very VERY chilly this winter in my opinion.

Last edited 2 years ago by Fansince1971
Eric_in_Portland
Legend
2 years ago

if the luxury tax is lowered to $180mil then it changes a lot of teams’ plans and creates uncertainty. If we give Raisel a QO then are we out on Granderson? Because maybe the Red Sox have to scale back and go after guys in the second tier. Something like that.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Fansince1971

Rasiel is the best closer we have had since Huston Street?? After we extended Huston at age 31, he pooped his pants. Yes, Rasiel is a better arm but he won’t top his 2021 WAR going into the backside of pitching beyond 32 years old. Natural falloff. See Brad Hand. However, hope we can snag him without an overpay I a 2-yr vs 3-yr deal.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  FungoAle

Here comes that 2 year deal so many of us think Iglesias might be willing to sign now! So pretty…. so low risky….
comment image

Fansince1971
Legend
2 years ago

So true

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago

If only Perry could fart magical pride dust like your horse.. Yippe-ki-yay

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

Ohhhhh boooooyyyy. Can’t wait for this week to close out and a list of all the players who have been let go by teams to be compiled. I am like a hobo/trustifarian waiting behind Whole Foods. I will find the barely past it’s date fully cooked exotic sausages and boxed barley before the other hobos, and when I declare my bounty folks can complain that these don’t move the needle.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

I think Jacob Junis could be a useful arm for us…. long relief etc.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago

Who’s Trustifarian? Can he Pitch?

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Cowboy26

Only in the Giants home park.

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago

Nov.4 AFL Desert Dogs……3rd appearance in a row where Crow starts and Pina follows him.

Crow – IP 4.0, H 4, ER 1, SO 2, BB 0, HR 1 ERA 1.50

Pina – IP 3.1, H 4, ER 1, SO 3, BB 1, HR 0 ERA 1.59

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

God. Next time a Mets fan or Angels fan rends their blouse just remember being a Reds fan today….. need to save 1M dollars? Waive Wade Miley. Fantastic. I love Arte’s money.

Twebur
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Yankee fan favorite …Can’t pitch……can’t hit much either…maybe the new Rengifo?
https://www.si.com/mlb/yankees/news/new-york-yankees-to-be-impacted-by-shortstop-andrew-velazquez-pitcher-luis-gil-in-september

Last edited 2 years ago by Twebur
Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Twebur

Game changer

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Defensive depth.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

This pretty much means the brass was not buying Rengifo at SS defensively.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Que Lastima

steelgolf
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Almost forgot about that.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago

I’m not buying Rengifo’s defense.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  FungoAle

Yes.

Eric_in_Portland
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

good-ish minor league numbers. We’ll see if he’s any good.

WallyChuckChili
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Seems like an Eppler move!

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

Eh. He’s just infield depth. Same as the Davis move below. Both those guys will be an upgrade defensively over last year’s scrubs at SS so the move fits one of the stated goals, which is to improve as many positions defensively as we can.

Light the sparklers, we’ve improved our “break glass in emergency” defensive depth for 2022 in the middle infield. I bet this isn’t our last move this winter.

RexFregosi
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Edited for brevity

The first step towards this off season is taking inventory of what the Angels have.

Junk

red floyd
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  RexFregosi

Yeah, but I suspect he’ll be in the minors…  😄 

Marshallx89
Member
2 years ago

What do we think about taking a flyer on either of the ChiSox outrights? I feel like Jace Fry or Jimmy Cordero are both low risk pick ups that have a chance to be significant contributors.

Last edited 2 years ago by Marshallx89
gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Marshallx89

There’s gonna be a lot of seething over those not being “championship moves” and “wasting another year of Trout” and that we “MUST win now or the world will implode!” but yeah, we will almost certainly pick up a couple guys like this to see if we can get the goose to poop gold. I think the number of geese we buy will depend on how much we spend trying to get a starter to come here and not totally suck.

h27kim
Trusted Member
2 years ago

All depth moves, if they pan out, are championship moves, I believe.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  h27kim

No way bruh. Depth moves that are championship moves pan out the year before the move is made or they are crap that’s not committed to winning.

admkir
Trusted Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Marshallx89

Read deeper, Cordero had TJ and Frye is wild

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  admkir

Cordero will be back by early this year. March or April. And yes, Frye is wild. That’s why they are flyers. Not sure bets. Frye is a perfect example of a guy who, if he manages to be less wild for 45 innings next year, is suddenly a solid to very good pen piece.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

BOLD IDEA: If it looks to PTP like the top 3 starters on his wish list all have wives that want their husbands to play in Texas or North Carolina or some crap then…

1) Sign Raisel.
2) Sign Cobb
3) Sign a solid mook like Tyler Anderson
4) Pivot and overpay a little to sign a pile of pen arms. Build a pen out of say Chafin, Knebel, Tepera, Kim and Iglesias… plus Mayer and Warren.
5) Sign defensive shortsop.
6) Look to trade for another solid but not spectacular starter.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

That’s a good way to look at it…. eliminate the worst innings.

admkir
Trusted Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

You forgot our favorite inherited runner guy Cishek

red floyd
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  admkir

The Taxman

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago

My only worry with this plan is how much it looks like previous plans (Harvey/Cahill, Quintana, Teheran). Shop well and one is a genius, choose poorly (well, we all saw Indiana Jones, right?)

h27kim
Trusted Member
2 years ago

We all saw 2021 Giants rotation, too. No, i don’t think PTP was “stupid” for signing Quintana over Wood/DiSclafani (too many variables, including coaching/analytics,/etc), but I do wish we won some gambles on “interesting but risky” starters, though

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  h27kim

I think we did win one with Cobb.

JackFrost
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Cowboy26

Cobb was decent. Unfortunately he wasn’t good enough to make up for the shit show of Quintana, Bundy and Heaney.

FungoAle
Legend
2 years ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Cobb was the Angels No. 2 after Ohtani. Wonder if Bundy or Heaney will land a $3M deal, sure picked a bad time to digress.

Last edited 2 years ago by FungoAle
JackFrost
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  FungoAle

Saying Cobb was our 2 is very misleading. He would not be a 2 on any good team.

More like a 4 or 3 at best. That just shows that we really need to add a Scherzer or a Stroman.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  JackFrost

I still don’t understand this usage of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5.

This is surely an ideal – not based in reality. In this system, not all teams have a 1, so these designations are quality – not relative.

Fungo’s usage clearly was relative to the team. Who was the second best player on the team. When creating a rotation, someone is #1, and someone pitches after them (hence #2). That is how I have historically seen this designation used.

The other seems to mean that Cobb shouldn’t be our second best option (he doesn’t belong in the #2 slot), hence we need someone better to push him down on the list. All you seem to be saying is that we should get more (and better) pitching, which we all know. No knock on Cobb, and not really disagreeing with Fungo (whose comment was perfectly clear, and not at all misleading).

JackFrost
Super Member
2 years ago

I am just saying that calling Cobb a number 2 is implying a level or quality that is not there; at least in the way that I am using the term.

You said “not all teams have a number 1” , which is exactly right. It is not about who pitches on Opening Day or how a team lists their starters. It IS about quality, and that is what I was getting at.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  JackFrost

Those are two different systems.

When teams announce their rotations, we often have a discussion using ‘my’ use of the term – who we match up against.

My biggest problem with ‘your’ usage is that the level of quality assigned to the numbers is often vague or undefined. And likely it changes over time. If there are only 10-15 #1s out there – that makes me wonder why the numbers 1-5 are used at all. They seem to be related to positions in a traditional rotation – which I guess is what bothers me about it.

I know both systems are out there – but it is when they get conflated – like in this conversation, where you were using one system, and I (and I think Fungo) were using another, that is becomes problematic.

gitchogritchoffmypettis
Legend

Just buy me all of the pitchers who will be good next year and none of the bad ones. Also draft all the players who will become stars. Do this and Arte is still a cheap asshole. Don’t do this, and Arte is also still a cheap asshole. No matter what, I am smarter than PTP. Also Trout window plus Ohatni skylight. I’ve got to go to the bathroom. Bye.  😩  🛀 

JackFrost
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

Yep. I would be happy if Stroman was the only big name starter we add. Then adding a 3 would be nice for depth and security.

Sandoval coming off injury is a bit of a question, as is C-Rod. Add Stroman and one mid-rotation guy then we can work on the pen.

matthiasstephan
Super Member
2 years ago
Reply to  Jeff Joiner

I think we are underestimating Stroman’s social media game. He would totally take off the heat from Trout and Ohtani – let them be regular everyday guys, and let Stroman play interference with the media (they love that). Trout for weather and airplane emojis, and Stro for SoMe commentary and calling out opponents.

Cowboy26
Legend
2 years ago

So which one of those moves is considered the big splash?

You know Arte.